OK, I am trying to take a deep breath here but I just had this message “this cartridge has exceeded it’s life span and must be replaced” I have several issues with this;
-if this is Formlabs solution to the overfill Disaster they need to think again. (FIX THE VALVE!!!)
-if this is Formlabs way of money grabbing, to make me buy there resin there going to lose me as a customer.
-not allowing me to continue to print with this cartridge has cost me down time and I am now losing money until I get a replacement. (please Formlabs understand that I am a big boy and you don’t have to hold my hand and tell me what I can and cannot do with MY machine. did you forget that?
-I have owned the Form 2 now for 6 months and have had no issues, I keep the machine clean and well cared for. I am using it everyday. I feel I have a good understanding of what it takes to keep it operating there no need for Formlabs to put crap in the software that brings a machine to a stop that is operating just fine.
-I own 2 Formlabs printers and they will be the last ones. I will be moving on to a bigger and better machine in the near future good luck to you Formlabs.
Mike Auer
Scout Design and MFG (which is not able to MFG because of a overzealous company thinking my machine is there’s)
I just took delivery of my form 2, and i love it… However I am with you on the cartridge thing… There is NO reason that a cartridge is a single use EXCEPT as a money grab… They could easily design a better valve. As long as you are putting in a resin that matches the profile that you are going to print with, who cares…
I hate DRM (which this is to an extent).
Money grab plain and simple.
Lots of DRM here, Cartridge, Vat, software, open settings not being open. I think the community has voiced their opinion but as long as FL has a good thing going they won’t change it. I love our Form2s as well but there are some other more open source competitors that my company is investing money in to see if we can optimize it for our purposes more.
Just like Formlabs disrupted the established players (3D Systems, Stratasys, etc.) who all did the Vendor lock-in game by having proprietary resins and cartridges and DRM-like crap, so too will someone else with a fully open system that works across all operating systems come in and steal the show from them if they keep this crap up. There’s simply no reason to do this.
It’s sad that they have gone in this direction. It’s greedy and very non-enlightened.
I know formlabs is very successful already… However if they opened this up (even if they didnt support it if you did) and really let the community work on this thing and make it better, they would have a stranglehold on the market.
All the other resin printers are no where near the ease of use and software integration at formlabs has. I had a muve3d and while it produced INSANELY good prints it was hard to do supports (meshmixer) and since it is basically a kit, you are always modifying something (i loved that printer, but had to sell it).
Formlabs… listen to us please
Are you supposed to just dispose of the cartridge when it’s done? It is a bit of an environmental issue also. Could they not just make the cartridge refillable? Could even sell the resin in plastic seal-able bags to reduce waste volume. It would also be easier to cure the excess resin in the bag before sending it to the landfill. Trying to cure excess resin in bottles is pretty impossible.
@Edward_Peretti I wish I could like your post more!
Exactly, the environmental aspect and stewardship of @Formlabs is almost completely absent. Everything is designed to be thrown away so you spend more money on these consumables. These bottles and cartridges are likely not readily recyclable because of the resin, so they’re just landfill fodder. Throw away an entire molded plastic tray after 2 liters of resin pass through it? Really?
Technology is great, but sustainability must be taken into account when designing and marketing a product. We only have one Planet!
What’s the situation where it’s telling you the cartridge needs to be replaced? Are you refilling it after it empties? If so, then there’s a good reason for the cartridge to be replaced, since the valve will wear down over time and increase the chance that it might leak. That’s due to the valve design which I’m not sure is something they can fix without doing other modifications to the printer itself.
As far as the tray goes–they sell those as consumables because of ease of use, most people don’t want to go through the trouble of replacing the PDMS. You can replace it if you want to but that requires a lot of work to do.
My guess, is that as a company they are still at the point where printer issues cost them a lot to try and fix, especially if the printer has to be sent in for repair. So part of the limitations are so that they can avoid as many issues as possible if you follow the workflow they have set up.
I would like to see a recycling program for the bottles.
The cartridges should also have some kind of program. Maybe buy a bottle to refill the cartridge and replace the valve. Then the old valve and empty bottle could go back to FL for refilling. They would have to change how the cartridge tells the printer what is in the printer. Not that it is really needed. It isn’t that hard to figure out what resin is in the printer when selecting the material within preform.
I’m glad to see that I am not the only one feeling the pain of big brother Formlabs controlling our machines. I agree with the need for recycling these products as well, but I don’t want this thread to lose focus on getting Formlabs to let go of there ability to shut machines/printers down when ever they feel like it. For now I am waiting for my new cartridge to come while my machine sits waiting in otherwise perfect operating condition. I wonder if Formlabs would offer to print my orders that are waiting until I get my new cartridge.
Mike Auer
Scout Design and MFG (The MFG part is not really true because Formlabs has not said it was OK to use my printer.)
Just thought you all would be interested in Formlabs response to my suggested changes to there printers. They are very good at saying nothing and admitting nothing. Keep up the good work Formlabs you winning customers by the minute, not
Maggie McCarty (Formlabs)
Sep 19, 3:12 PM EDT
Hi Mike,
Thank you for reaching out to us at Formlabs Customer Care! I’m sorry that you are unhappy with our printers, and I want to start off by saying that it wasn’t our intention to make you feel condescended too. This kind of honest feedback is what ultimately helps us grow and improve as a product and overall as a company, so thank you for taking the time to be candid with us. You mentioned that you like us to avoid a, “we know better than you type response,” and I will do my best to not give that impression. You use this machine every day, and I think it’s fair to say that you do know a lot about our product.
That being said, I just want to know what kind of response you are looking for so I can try my best to provide it for you.
We appreciate your feedback and please let us know how we can help. I look forward to hearing from you soon!
Best,
Maggie
Formlabs Services | Customer Care
Check out our forums and our detailed support and how-to articles!
Mike Auer
Sep 18, 1:00 PM EDT
Formlabs,
Please do not respond with (we know better than you type response it will only serve to make me sell off my Formlabs equipment sooner.)
OK, I am trying to take a deep breath here but I just had this message “this cartridge has exceeded it’s life span and must be replaced” I have several issues with this;
-if this is Formlabs solution to the overfill Disaster they need to think again. (FIX THE VALVE!!!)
-if this is Formlabs way of money grabbing, to make me to buy there resin there going to lose me as a customer.
-not allowing me to continue to print with this cartridge has cost me down time and I am now losing money until I get a replacement. (please Formlabs understand that I am a big boy and you don’t have to hold my hand and tell me what I can and cannot do with MY machine. did you forget that?
-I have owned the Form 2 now for 6 months and have had no issues, I keep the machine clean and well cared for. I am using it everyday. I feel I have a good understanding of what it takes to keep it operating there no need for Formlabs to put crap in the software that brings a machine to a stop that is operating just fine.
-I own 2 Formlabs printers and they will be the last ones. I will be moving on to a bigger and better machine in the near future good luck to you Formlabs.
Mike Auer
Scout Design and MFG (which is not able to MFG because of a overzealous company thinking my machine is there’s)
Mike,
Not to sound mean but what did you expect them to say?
Formlabs has said the same thing on the forum over and over. Do not re-use / refill the cartridge. They have never said anything other then this. Many have asked for more control over open mode. I hope it comes one day but it took a very long time for OpenFL to get released. The community is working on different resin profiles. I fully understand why FL has given us enough information to be dangerous with but they will not go farther. I may not like it, but I do understand it.
It is not like Formlabs sold all of these printers and then doubled the price of resin. It has not changed since the Form 1. I have used my fair share of 3rd party resins. Some I really like. Some are terrible. I have consistent results with FL resin. When I don’t, I have someone to talk to for assistance. They help and have done the right thing when needed.
It can’t hurt telling them how you feel and suggest ways to improve the product. I have sent them plenty of suggestions. I do not expect a company to say they have a design problem when in all reality, they may not think they have one. Could the design be better, sure.
I hope FL implements some kind of recycling program in the future. I am still waiting for 3D Systems / Solido to implement the program they were working on to recycle the PVC waste from the Invision LD / Solido printer I have. I don’t think it will ever happen and the waste from that printer is beyond excessive. Does anyone know if Stratasys has implemented any programs for the liquid waste from the support removal process of their FDM printers? The last I knew, it was dump it down the drain. I can’t see how that is good for the environment. All companies can improve. Hopefully they all will.
We can only hope that FL is truly listening and they implement programs as they mature as a company.
It seems like OpenFL is kind of a start but the git says it only works for the 1/1+, I was also a little unclear on if you would have to void the warranty and open the case. Regardless I have a 2 so will just have to wait and see.
Formlabs is making a product and not really making a good community for Makers. Sure we all collaborate on this forum for better ways to print objects but all of the printer makers have it. Encouraging a good maker community would enable us to help make the product better. There are ways that the community could help an example would be to build actual profiles for different resins, helping to monitor for overflows when using the wiper and autofill. Another idea would be to enable makers to have a camera interface with the software as an optical fill sensor. Using an optical camera and the capacitance sensor you would map out a pretty good profile. Just a thought.
David,
Thanks for your reply all of this discussion is good and hopefully it gets through to Formlabs at some point. I do need to clarify that my Form 2 is down right now because the software is telling me that the cartridge can not be use anymore. I am OK with Fromlabs notifying me that the cartridge is needing to be replaced but they must allow me to choose to override that and continue at my own risk. I do believe there are other factors going on (see my posts above) like “money grab” that are getting in the way of doing the right thing for there customers. (if your oil needs changing in your car, does the car company shut your car down until you do it?)
Mike A
How many times have your refilled the cartridge? I remember reading that others have gotten 2 refills before that message shows up.
I am sure you do not want to use open mode, but until you get another cartridge, why not keep printing with open mode?
As someone who manages customer technical support for a very large international technology firm, I would opine that I don’t believe FL is doing anything wrong or even inappropriate. They have to protect their product support costs. Warranty burden can make or break a product’s profit margin.
But. Individual users tend to view the universe through a very narrow “lens” that’s only pointed at themselves. The “I know what I’m doing, I paid you for this product so it’s mine, so you have no right to keep me from doing what I want” argument seems like it might be valid, but it’s not. It’s specious. It doesn’t take into account that there are many other users out there who don’t know what they’re doing, who’ll screw the printer up because they think they know what they’re doing, who will then demand FL fix their printer for free in spite of the problem being due to operator error.
I’m a “car guy”. I own few modified (very) high performance vehicles (Averaged out across them all I’m at around 500HP). The first time I put a wrench to one of my cars I know I’m risking the warranty. Typically, I will buy new and drive completely stock for the first 2 years before I start modifying things in order to give warrantable items a chance to break and be replaced by the manufacturer, without my having to argue that the things I did to the car have nothing to do with the failure. But you don’t have to modify the car to invalidate the warranty, you only have to use it in a way the manufacturer does not authorize. Standard rule for “Track Days” and autocross events is, if you break your car on the track, drag it to the nearest shopping mall parking lot before calling the Dealer for a tow. Automobile manufacturer’s warranties are voided when you use your car in competition even if the extent of your modifications is nothing more significant than a bumper sticker.
I’d argue the car example is a metaphor for FL’s “user management” philosophy. They have to enable the features for all to use if any are to be allowed to use the feature. The few highly experienced users take advantage of the access with great success and they either don’t have problems or they fix the problems they cause with their experimentation for themselves. The 98% of the rest of the user base that doesn’t really know what they’re doing try some things out and suddenly FL has a huge influx of customer support requests and in some cases, irate users demanding FL fix the printer because their experiment messed it up somehow.
What FL could do is add an option to enable all these various things (like reusing a cartridge as many times as you dare, or enabling heat and wiper in Open mode) via a screen on the printer that says “The user understands they are invalidating their warranty if they proceed”. If the user accepts the restriction, they can do whatever the heck they want except submit a warranty claim if their printer subsequently develops a problem. The user is happy (maybe, in the short term anyway) because they can do the things they want even though FL has advised against it, and FL won’t have to worry about warranty costs incurred by operator error, the printer will have recorded the user acknowledging the warranty was voided when the features were enabled and any user claims can be dismissed on that basis.
Of course, whether or not people would still want to try these features if they knew doing so would invalidate their warranty is questionable. I would guess that many would opt not to try if they believed they’d have to pay for any mistakes they made. Which is probably what FL thinks (because it’s what I’d think if I were managing their technical support organization), which is why they haven’t bothered to add this kind of feature.
We would all buy them, but they can’t do that because the only reason why anyone would buy one is to put 3rd party resins in them, and as they said before, that might cause an overflow because of the uncalibrated viscosity.
