What is wrong with you?

General Discussion
1

So, I am a proud owner of two 1+ printers. Before I made my purchases in 2015, I had the sales staff all over me and very helpful.
Now it is an entirely different story. I called and asked several times to speak to someone about purchasing Form 2 printers.
No callback so far. So I started thinking about it and here are my thoughts…

Form 1+ was launched in June 2014 and it died (“retired”) in March 2018.
Form 2 was launched in September 2015. (do the math)

Does this mean that we have less than a year left in the Form 2 before it also “retires”?
Is this why I can not get anyone interested in selling me one?

I can not possibly be the only “crazy” person feeling betrayed by Formlabs.
In my opinion, it is NOT OK to retire such an excellent and popular product so quickly. And, to be so vague about it.
The availability of consumables is troubling. Are Spare parts available until they run out? Seriously?

I hate to see this “transformation,” but Formlabs is NOT the company it used to be. Too much success can quickly lead to failure and history is full of such examples.

I am not so sure that I want to invest in a product or company that may have such a short product lifespan.

I think that I will nurse my Form 1+ and wait for another company to raise and provide the energy behind their products. Something Formlabs used to have.

Sad…

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well yeah, I get your point, but then the Form1 was a breakthrough product. It was essentially an experimental platform for early adopters. It is not unusual for a product that is really the first available high res SLA machine for a desktop prosumer user to be short lived.

Look at filament printers? How long did the first makerbot last?

You can’t really complain about generational improvements in new technologies or in technologies that are only just breaking into the consumer market.

The Form 1 was Bound to be a learning curve in finding out what worked and what didn’t work out the the real world- and its release funded the development of a much better printer- with a better size of build volume, more automated features, etc.

In short the Form 2 Adds every feature to the Form 1 whose lack of prevented people from buying a Form 1.

I didn’t buy a form 1 BECAUSE i develop products for a living. I understand that the first iteration is always going to be fraught with issues that will be corrected in subsequent models.

And face it- how many 3D printer companies have released a product and gone out of business within a year or two?

And so I waited to see which printer company would survive to field better versions of their technology and which ones would appear to provide the best product.

Formlabs and the Form 2 satisfied those criteria where no other printer maker has.

So- I feel pretty safe in investing in this printer… even though I will have to find out the hard way how durable they might be in daily use. Or, at least, I feel SAFER than any other manufacturer makes me feel.

And I’m not sure why you are “calling” about buying a Form 2… Just go on their website or Dynamism.com and Order one.

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My god, I hope that you ropinions are not representative that of Formlabs.

Seriously, you only think that you get my point.

Unless you own Form Gen 1 printer, you will never get the point.

Form 1+ is still a fantastic product, and I know many people that will continue to use them until they wear them out.

An “early adopter” is no different from an “investor” in a company. Many thousands of “believers” have “invested” in this company by purchasing the first gen products. We also have put up with lots of abuse as the company experimented with resins, printing platforms, etc. ALL financed by people like “us.”
Killing the Form 1+ so early is yet another gesture to “us” that we are #1 and profits matter more than the people that financed this Billion dollar company.

For a brief moment of clarity, Formlabs offered $600 rebate to the Form 1+ owners, if they wanted to upgrade to Form 2.

That… my friend is the fair way to treat an investor. A “thank you for believing in us and your investment” which by the way paved the road to making a better products.
The investor would call it a dividend.

Unlike YOU… I have invested thousands in believing in Formlabs mission and products, and I certainly resent getting lectured by someone who does NOT even own the product!

I sure hope that there are going to be readers that may be thinking about buying the Fuse 1. Let’s see what they would tell you if they knew that in about three years they would get a lecture like this from some sanctimonious Millenial.

Calling in and wanting to speak to a “real” person.? Yeah, dude!

If you did not hide behind the shroud of anonymity and used your real name, you would not be so prolific and quick to lend your opinions.

Yeah, you get my point?

Ivo Foldyna

4

Sheesh, Ivo- I understood your point.

Number one- I am not a millennial. I am 61 years old.
Number two- I have been a professional artist and product designer for 40 years.
Over the past 21 years I have spent around $330,000 in printing and milling costs.
I still spend more on milling each quarter than the entire Form 2 cost me.

All but the money I spent on the Form 2 went to service bureaus… because it made no sense for me to buy into any one solution when new and better machines were coming out every other month… for two decades.

I appreciate guys like you who jump into new technologies with both feet… but I just want the things I buy to be more mature. I didn’t buy the first iphone, either, because i knew the second generation would be a much better product.

I understand you feel you were left holding the bag… yet here you admit that you WERE offered an incentive to move into the new generation Form printer, in appreciation of your early support… but apparently you let that limited offer slip by? Whenever I get an offer like that, I KNOW that means that the old machine will not be supported.

For 34 years I spent around 4 grand every time I had to buy a new computer… because software updates left my old computer obsolete… and I had to buy a new computer about every 3 years. So, perhaps, I;'m just a whopping lot more used to rapid obsolescence than you are.
… for a guy my age it has been a hell of an adjustment to adapt to a world in which most of the vendors I deal with don’t really do business over the phone. ( especially those headquartered in another country.) But adapt I have.

I understand and sympathize with your frustration.
and I am grateful that early adopters like you exist.

But, dude, you knew the job was dangerous when you took it.

I expect in fours years time my shiny new Form 2 will be worn to a nub.
And there will be newer and perhaps better machines available to replace it.

As a result my costing analysis for the machine I bought factors in replacing the machine in 4 years time.
If it even makes it that far.

if it lasts longer and is still supported… then that’s just all gravy.
But I don’t care that the company might stop supporting it in four years.

Just as I plan for the day I’ll have to replace my car, my cell, or my computer… I plan for the fact that my printer is a temporary tool.

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Blockquote

Formlabs only mission is to make money like any other business. Ways to make money are via great products and customer service.

6

Well said from another 61-year old fart that’s been in the design business and hobby most of my life.

7

On August 16, 2018, I posted in this forum subject “What is wrong with you?”

http://forum.formlabs.com/t/what-is-wrong-with-you/20088

I am a surprised that my comments received so little traction, except for a few “cool-aid drinkers.”
I will state my point again:

It is NOT OK for a company to “kill.” all support, parts, and consumables for a $3000+ product in less than four years after its introduction.

There are some Federal and State laws that explicitly protect end users against such abuse. Many States have a minimum mandate for a company to support their product for at least seven years!
Anyone in California that purchased Formlabs products should look into the Song-Beverly Consumer Warranty Act.
Federal lemon laws among others may apply as well.

Formlabs is a thriving company that can easily provide spare parts for the Form1+ owners.

Assuming that this post is not censored, please show some backbone and support this post to send a message to the formlabs oligarchs.

To ALL cool-aid drinkers…
Before you respond to this post, you should at least own the Formlabs product.
Sanktaminous “know-it-all” likes of the generous contributor in this forum known under the pseudonym “Sculptingman” whom by the way, does NOT even own Form anything printer should find something more productive to do with their time.

8

I agree with you about the support. I had a Form 1+. It died from a cracked resin tank. They would fix it for $400, I think, but soon they were going to stop all support. I had 2 Form 2’s so I just scrapped it.
I work for a company that has been making products for 30 years. Some of those products we discontinued, but we still support those old products.
I can tell you the reason Formlabs is stopping support for the Form 1. It’s easier on them to just stop it altogether. They have decided that it’s not cost effective for them to keep supplying parts.
Is this a good idea? I don’t think so. In my business if you piss off customer, they hold a grudge and don’t buy from you anymore. You get more business from good customer service than you do from flashy advertisements that I see every time I start a youtube video!
A certain pneumatics company pissed me off over twenty years ago and I won’t buy anything from them to this day!
Good customer service sells!

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Listen- Maybe you ought to look up the word ‘sanctimonious’. You show symptoms of a serious case of Pot/Kettle.

Actually. Ivo, , I Have a Form 2. I rather pointedly explained that I owned one, and that I had no problem with the fact that it may be obsolete in 4 years time. So, please don’t attempt to characterize posts you obviously have not even read.

BTW- the Song-Beverly Act IS the California Lemon law. And it doesn’t apply to four year old electronics.
Whingeing about lack of consumables and parts makes it pretty clear that your Form 1 worked as you expected and that you would simply like it to keep on working as it has- ergo- it would not fall under Song-Beverly which specifically addresses devices that DON’T work.

10

Perhaps you should look it up in more detail before you make statements like these.

The California Lemon Law applies to any product, including electronics and appliances. And yes, depending on the value of the product, the manufacturer must provide parts for servicing for as long as 7 years.

Here is an excerpt from the law: paragraph 2 is what applies to the Form printers.

1793.03.

  1. Every manufacturer making an express warranty with respect to an electronic or appliance product described in subdivision (h), (i), (j), or (k) of Section 9801 of the Business and Professions Code, with a wholesale price to the retailer of not less than fifty dollars ($50) and not more than ninety-nine dollars and ninety-nine cents ($99.99), shall make available to service and repair facilities sufficient service literature and functional parts to effect the repair of a product for at least three years after the date a product model or type was manufactured, regardless of whether the three-year period exceeds the warranty period for the product.

  2. Every manufacturer making an express warranty with respect to an electronic or appliance product described in subdivision (h), (i), (j), or (k) of Section 9801 of the Business and Professions Code, with a wholesale price to the retailer of one hundred dollars ($100) or more, shall make available to service and repair facilities sufficient service literature and functional parts to effect the repair of a product for at least seven years after the date a product model or type was manufactured, regardless of whether the seven-year period exceeds the warranty period for the product

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Looks like another version of the Kansas π law…

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I was referring to the “lemon” section of the law.
The section regarding implied warrantee of functionality does NOT apply to four year old electronics. That only refers to new purchases of products that fail to meet consumer expectations, And even then only to retail sales in California. If you bought a lemon Form 1 thru the internet and did not pay California sales taxes on the purchase- then your purchase is not covered by that section of the law.

But Ivo pretty clearly did Not get a lemon Form 1.
Ergo the express warrantee offered by the seller is the only warrantee.

Now, The law does require manufactures offer to repair information… and repair parts… to service and repair facilities. Tho it does not require the manufacturer to offer to repair the devices, themselves.
e.g. Apple will sell parts for older computers to Authorized service vendors… but they don’t have to sell them to YOU.

Does the law say anything about having to provide consumables?
How about having to support software?

13

You’re choosing to interpret the law the by taking bits and pieces out of context. Fortunately, it doesn’t work like that. The law applies to ANY product that was offered for sale with either an implied or or expressed warranty. I doesn’t matter if the product was a “lemon” to start with or not, with regard to the availability of repair parts.

And no, the law does not apply to consumables, nor does it apply to software, since the majority of software is sold as is, without any implied warranty or guarantee to it’s suitability or performance.

Also since there are no repair facilities other than FormLabs, they must either provide the parts to the customer or repair the product themselves for the length of the 7 years mandated by law.

I haven’t needed any repairs to my printer, but you can better believe it that if I need them, I will invoke the law, and I will prevail, or they will have to deal with the better business bureau, or the chamber of commerce of their state

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Cracked tanks is due to a design flaw, Formlabs should not charge for damages that resulted from that flaw.

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15

If your intentions is to prototype products especially those that will ultimately be injection molded then a polyjet printer or sls would be a better choice. If your making objects that have tiny details then a sla is better but because sla printers have a bad side because of supports this can be a problem with some prototype geometries. Desktop SLA printers have their purpose especially in the small jewelry market where wax printers once dominated. Consider a Solidscape is still close to 30k for a full setup vs 3k for a desktop sla. this is also true with the dental market.

16

I also don’t like how Formlabs dropped a product that could still be an entry level machine to their product lineup. I see just as many technical issues on the forums for the Form2, some far more serious than a dusty mirror. I believe they disbanded the F1 to get out of the patent infringement settlement with 3d Systems which would be understandable but that seems all hush to the public. A little transparency then I might have considered going to a F2. Just dumping the product and expecting and hoping F1 users would migrate to the next machine seemed unreasonable and I believe it caused concern on how long will the F2 be around before they are stuck with another door stop.
A little corporate transparency for their reasons might have soothed the concerns of what used to be loyal customers.

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17

Exactly!
But for the fact that formlabs made me into a disloyal customer, I would have never considered looking at any other products. To my amazement my new $550 Anycubic Photon has a better print quality, is less fussy compared to the F1+ and I do not have to put up with any BS. Oh, and my printing costs are down 40% by comparison to F1+.
I expect that my Sinterit Lisa 2 I just paid $7,500 will run circles around the Fuse 1, and it is only a matter of time for the word to get out as formlabs alienates more people…
I can’t wait to see what the “all knowing 3D wizard / linguist / legal scholar” Sculptingman hast to say about this :thinking:

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18

I like my F1+, it owes me nothing. When I did need service (because the machine was shipped to me from bad QC) Formlabs did fix it and the machine has printed nearly flawlessly since.
What I don’t think is ethical is the way the dropped the product and I feel bad for people that bought the machine late only to find out 6 months later it’s a paper weight.
The least they could do is offer alternative suppliers for parts such as main mirror, galvo blocks, tanks, and laser modules or allow someone to offer those parts to the existing users. To cut all that off and leave people in limbo especially ones that never got their return on investment is simply bad business.

19

They did send me a new tank. The damage was done by the resin all over the insides and circuit board. I thought I could clean it and get it going again. I was wrong! If I had not already had two other form 2’s I might have tried harder to get them to fix the 1+ for free.
They don’t seem to understand what I said earlier about good customer service selling product.
My company had bought a Form 1, paid to have it upgraded to a 1+, another Form 1+, two Form 2’s, and paid full price, not a down payment, on two Fuse’s and the cleaning station. Did any of that matter to them, no.
We have since got our money back for the Fuse’s and used it to buy a 3D Systems Projet 2500.
I would be very cautious about buying anything major from them ever again. They don’t seem to be able to even get remotely close in their estimates of when things will ship. The Fuse is getting close to being a year overdue. They don’t even talk about it anymore. And who know how long they will support any product they have.
We’ll see if they can get their act together.

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