New hybrid resin mix

[JesseTaylor]

Hey MD, things have been pretty quiet around here. Hey just wondering what you think about eT's new Micro with "Epic" wax/resin for casting. I know it's only just come out but wonder if it'll be as good as they say?

[MongerDesigns]

Hey Jesse,

Been busy working. I heard about the new ET machine (which is the same machine more or less). Looks like they lowered the XY resolution from 31 microns to 50 microns, so that they can increase the build area a little. I would rather have the higher resolution. 50 microns would give even more stair stepping, even with the ET.  I hope the new material will give people less problems casting.

[sebastianolosau]

Hi guys,
Morger why not add pigments to the resin dws.
Hello from Italy

[id647980948]

Because the problem with the dws resin is that it doesn't cure enough in the form1. Adding pigment would make it worse.

[IsaacKatz]

Hey Monger, 

Did you finally decide on the Kevvox? Ill be getting my test prints from them soon.

What about the new 009 from DWS?

[id647980948]

Hey Isaac,

I finally decided not to get it.

Since I don't have the need to print on a regular basis and I don't do printing for clients that much, it makes more sense for me to send the occasional prints to a local service bureau instead of spending 15-20k on a printer. That's why I'm sticking with the Form1 for now and may check out the upcoming b9creator v1.3 when it comes out. I have seen the quality of the envisiontec, the kevvox, and the dws machines. To be honest, none of them cast as good as wax does. Most local printing bureaus use the 3d systems machines that print directly with wax (3d systems and Solidscape). You can't beat the convenience and you can't compete with them using a resin printer if you want to make money printing for others. A friend of mine has an envisiontec and he is having trouble convincing people to give him print jobs because they are afraid the casting will fail. They would rather print using wax, with no support removal to worry about and it casts prefect every time.

So, the resin printers I think will be more meant as a prototyping device for the occasional printing and casting (if you can), and spending 10-30k for them is not worth it. And since every day there are more lower cost resin printers coming out, I think the technology will slowly move away from the jewelry industry to be replaced maybe by SLS machines. Who knows.

[IsaacKatz]

I agree. Im thoroughly testing every resin before I go ahead, but due to the volume I need to print and the size of my pieces its not possible for me to depend on a service provider. Also I live in Mexico and there is no local services here, so that complicates matters. Overall im getting a printer, its just a matter of which. I cant imagine all these printers not really working because they wouldnt be selling and would have been out of business a long time ago. I think its more a matter of fine tuning the casting process.

That being said, how bout that castin resin for the form1 from makesolid. I preordered mine.. a little on the expensive side, also even if it casts fine not sure how many real 'production' pieces you can get out of the form 1 with the supports fiasco.

[DonThongie]

Hi Isaac, Thanks for pointing out the MadeSolid castable resin. I also want to preorder a bottle to try out as well, but after looking at the video clip I'm not sure that it's suitable for jewelry. Would love to hear more from someone about this resin. I own an ET micro for almost 2 years, have had no problem with it so far. It's been through 1.5 Litres of resin, almost 1,200 hrs of optical time and 1 resin tray replacement (quite expansive to run). The print quality is like MD said "top notch" and cast well all the time. The only problem for me is It's small build envelop. Form1 got me excited with its much larger build envelop and the future release of its own castable resin. I love the machine, easy to use and print faster, but I can't cast. Just 2 days ago I completed the B9 kit I got from MJ almost a year ago. Took me 1 whole days to assemble the kit, the software is easy to use and the machine works very well so far. Got through my first print without any problem. The print quality amazed me, setting up the printer at 75 micron pixel size we can have a build envelop ~ 7.6cm X 5.7cm and slice thickness of 50.8 micron. This machine seems adequate for my purpose. Just casting to do now. I hope you will find a printer that fit your purpose, keep us posted and keep this thread alive. Thongie

[IsaacKatz]

Yeah I agree Don, I've been researching the b9 and it looks great. It seems superior to the form1 in every way I can conceive of. With their new HD printer coming out it will just get better. Ive been comparing prints and theirs seem equivalent to an ET or a Kevvox. I spoke with Gary Dawson for half an hour on the phone about their new printer and im pre-ordering one.

Im curious Monger, why dont you go for the b9? It seems like everything you were asking for (ie. quality enough for production at a price that is not that of 'a compact car'), heck if you're so inclined you can even mess with their curing times, slider settings and whatnot, which you were asking for from the form1. What's your beef with them?

It seems to me like they are the ones that delivered on all of formlabs promises. I knew about them before buying by form1 but got caught by the snazzy image, well made video and all the promises that formlabs had on their kickstarter page and disregarded the b9 because of their poorly made campaign and page. Goes to show never judge a book by its cover. Lesson learned.

[IsaacKatz]

I mean they have been happily casting awesome prints for a year while we struggle and have to come up with these resin mixes of our own just to get a semi-decent print that is not castable.. what a joke. It's unbelievable to me that the form1 is getting so much attention and funding when its prints are mediocre at best. I would happily return mine if I could. Goes to show what role image and marketing play in today's products. 

[ClayCowgill]

@Isaac-- just sell the Form1 then!  They're fetching anywhere from $3500-$4500 pretty regularly on eBay, so resale value is quite good until something better comes along.

For people like me (product design, not a jeweler) not a single "real" (as opposed to little Thingiverse test items) piece I've printed on the Form1 would fit in the build envelope of the B9 Creator.  That alone makes the Form1 the preferred and 'superior' option for a lot of buyers.  Yes, the Form1 has some maddening "features" (supports in general) and things that definitely feel like "Version 1.0" of desktop 3D SLA printing, but when I can knock out 20-30 prints over a few days for 1/10th the cost and time as ordering from some place like Shapeways it does fulfill a purpose...

IMHO, it's definitely a better 'artistic' printer than a 'technical one' (absolute accuracy and quality of flat/orthogonal type shapes is far from perfect; organic and sculptural artistic forms can look pretty awesome), but that still meet the needs of a lot of buyers at this time.  Anytime you see eBay prices going for higher than 'new retail' you know there's a supply and demand curve in action.

[Gillesalexandre]

At some points i agree with you Isaac.
I have a more "artistic" use of the form1 but what disapointed me with the form1 is the lack of accuracy and all the problems we have with the peel process...

I don't think i'll have the money to buy the new HD B9. But i'm curious to know what is inside ? Do you know what the build envelopped will be ? What improvements ?

[id647980948]

Isaac, calm down and take a deep breath. I agree that the quality of the form1 prints is not up there yet, and the lack of casting resin doesn't help. However, it's still the easiest printer to use and the most reliable. 90% of my prints come out great, vs maybe about 20% when I had the b9. Going on their forum only about 3-4 people turn out descent prints, and I'm sure they don't post their failures. It involves more tinkering to get the prints you want, and for business you want reliable and predictable performance. I'm saving my money for a printer like that, and holding on to my form1 for now. I will check out the new b9 when it's out, but there is no way in hell that I'm gonna preorder anything, or kickstart, or whatever.

[KevinBrown]

If you keep it clean and the dust out mine does just fine I did pre order some casting resin from solidmade for the form1 until form come out with one 

[IsaacKatz]

Haha yeah I may have gone on a bit of a rant there, I apologize. It's just every now and then this stuff gets to me y'know..

Thanks for your input Monger, what you're saying is crucial and I hadn't considered it.

So basically you're saying you owned a b9 and was so dissatisfied with the reliability that you got rid of it and got the form1, and now like the form1 better in spite of all its shortcomings?

I think we use our printers for very similar purposes, and I respect your opinion, so if that's the case then im going to have to seriously reevaluate. Also I am not a DIY person so if I have to tweak stuff and solve all kinds of hardware issues its definelty not for me.

I'm wondering if the reliability will improve on the new one..

[IsaacKatz]

@Clay - good suggestion! I didint realize there was a strong secondary market for it. I might do just that.

@Guilles - As far as I know the main change is the upgrade to an HD projector and the possibility to do 30 micron feature size (from the current 50). This is compared to 270 micron on the form1. The HD projector means if you're doing the res as before you'll have a larger build area (about 25% more I think), and you can go up to the highest resolution. One of the things that is interesting about the b9 is that the build area changes according to the resolution (XY) you use, so if you dont need that much you get a bigger area. I suggest going to their FAQ for more info.

[id647980948]

No worries Isaac. I too get frustrated sometimes.

The b9 is a great machine, but it all depends on what your applications are. My machine was from the first kickstarter batch, so it had it's quirks (z-axis sticking, alpha software, no proper calibration instructions, etc). I did sell it and got the form1.

The new version will have an HD projector, so you can choose between a larger build area or more resolution.

I do like the Form1 more as a printer (not necessarily for jewelry) but it's more predictable when it comes to the output, while on the b9, you have to really know what you are doing and with every different type of part, you may need new settings and those usually come at the cost of a few failed prints and trial and error.

But when you do get it right, the quality of the prints is great. Not Envisiontec quality, but great for the price.

I have some jeweler clients who decided to get a b9 because they thought they can save money by not paying a service bureau for their prints, and ended up selling it a week later, and crawled back to using a service bureau. It's definitely not a click and print type of a machine.

 

[ClayCowgill]

So just as a datapoint, these are the Form1 sales on eBay going back to this time in January (eg, from about Jan 8th, 2104-Apr 8th, 2014)

$3500
$2300 (buy it now)
$3863
$4500 (buy it now)
$4370
$4550
$4350
$3600
$5100
$3640
$3550
$4000
$3999.99 (buy it now)

That makes for a median price of $4000 and an average price of $3948.  Pretty impressive for something that's still being made and retails at $3300 if you're patient to wait for a new delivery...

[id647980948]

This thread is officially off track.

[JesseTaylor]

Indeed it is MD but at least it's active ; )