Business Scaling and Costs with Formlabs SLS

General Discussion
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So after years of running a Fuse and then a Fuse 1+ as a business owner, I am at the point of thinking about a second Fuse 1+ to not just scale up production but to really “one is none” proof our operation.

When this single Fuse acts up, its sometimes down for weeks till Formlabs can help get to the bottom of it and/or finally acknowledges the issue, that we more than likely helped figure out on our own with the help of you all, here on the forum and together offline.

That aside, looking at the overall costs I just wanted to throw this out there as a suggestion and/or discussion mainly around the service and maintenance of this system.

The initial buy in to all this including the Fuse, Sift, chambers and let’s say the Blast (because now I can’t live without it) will set you back around $60,000. I pay $4,000 yearly for service now, on what I assume is for all that. However, I have learned it has its limitations as they won’t cover the thermal bands on my chambers, etc…

Now that I have years of “extensive” experience troubleshooting this system with the help of Formlabs Support, you all and for the most part can keep it going with replacement parts from Formlabs as needed (minus bad firmware releases…will keep that out of the equation for now)

Let’s look at scaling up.

So the additional Fuse 1+ will be $24,000 and we are told the current service coverage would cost either another $4,000 a year or we can “save” by paying $19,700 for 5 years on this additional “$24,000 Fuse”…

Firstly, I have to say that a 5 year service/maintenance of nearly the entire cost of the machine itself seems a little outside the realm of consumables (heat bulbs, filters, optical cassettes, chamber gaskets, etc…) Anything above that, for example, failed lasers, dosers (which I had after the first month of owning) motherboards (which was bad on my original Sift straight from the factory) etc… those high dollar items… I would think should be covered under some sort of Warranty in my opinion at least within a year or so.

As far as “on scene support”… this was never really available and even the few times a rep came they never were able to resolve the issue on scene anyway. They only were here to basically confirm the issue I already tried explaining to Support over hundreds of emails. Which led to finally getting replacement parts, chambers and even a new replacement Fuse.

Now I could see this being your first system that maybe you need some extra attention and troubleshooting help but…

If you are someone who has run a Fuse system for a few years and has been through every scenario of troubleshooting with and without the help of support and looking to expand operations… what are your thoughts on paying another $20,000 dollars for 5 years “maintenance” on a second $24,000 machine?

To me… “charging you essentially the entire cost of the machine itself”… does not speak too highly of the team’s confidence in dependability of this machine within just a 5 year life span.

I would personally think that in this scenario, there could be better “Service Packages” for an existing business to expand…while feeling confident they could get dedicated online support (Phone Calls would be amazing, versus the hundreds of emails back and fourth it has taken between dozens of reps to just prove each issue) and opt for yearly maintenance in consumables (heat bulbs, filters, chamber gaskets, optical cassettes).

But… for $20,000 or $4,000 a year that is ALOT of consumables and support “emails” in my opinion and anything that shuts down your machine beyond that, especially faulty equipment, should be covered within a realistic Warranty timeframe I would think.

Regardless… I am just trying to figure out if you would pay the $20,000 service fee for your second $24,000 printer… OR … just buy “two more printers” for the cost of one…run them both and strip one for parts as needed? Haha

I say that jokingly but… :thinking:

Is this service cost reasonable?

Let’s think about it

Maybe the actual cost of this Fuse should be around $40,000 and this is how they actually make their money for selling this system?

I mean personally, I think the machine and complete system is absolutely amazing when running and well worth $40k “when running”… but it better run for at least 5 years (at least) with ZERO issues at that reasonable price… so maybe this cost is acceptable :thinking:

My Opinion/Suggestion…

I think it would be smart for Formlabs to offer better options for long time users to scale and to incentivize growth as we’ve been through the growing pains together with the first system/child…whats having another together! Haha

but that’s just my opinion, love to hear all your thoughts?

Otherwise, I’m seriously thinking about just adopting two more children (Fuse’s) and not getting either of them Health Insurance…

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I’d wait to see what new systems they are going to show off on the 24th as I feel it might be SLS/Micronics related.

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I bought a second Fuse 1 to get ahead of needed scaling. The redundancy is nice. Its funny because the one time I really could have used the redundancy (upper laser winder replacement) I did not have a second machine, and now that I do I haven’t had any serious issues! Next up is hopefully a blast to reduce post processing labor.

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What did you end up getting for the service plans with the second machine?

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I elected to not get the service plan. Really the decision was made for me because I could not afford it. This may change in the future as I expand. Thinking back on it now, I’ve survived because I am mechanically inclined and have a lot of experience repairing equipment. The average person, and people who plan to buy these for employees to use, absolutely should get the service plan!

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that seems to be the way life is..

  • The car runs perfectly when you take it to the mechanic
  • The AC quits the week AFTER your MIL visits
  • The super-important RUSH order comes the hour after your equipment dies.
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Just to give some light here…

I totally agree in the fact support should be more effective, I recall the days when F2 machines had to be sent to HQ in case remote support was unable to solve the case.

FL has always kept certain details top secret, even for their service partners.

Industrial machines are that expensive because they are supposed to be designed for lasting at least 15 years, but those break too. It all depends of the capabilites of your local reseller/distriibutor to manage the case adequately.

I have experience with Stratasys machines and know of several cases where even with HQ assitance and presence on site the machine never got back to work, there is a case where a Fortus 400 machine needed to be sent back to HQ and even there it couldn’t be reparired.

Last month while attending the audit to MADIT(National Additive manufacturing and digitalizacion lab) in Mexico, the EOS Formiga p110 they have is still broken. Tecnicians have been several times on site, but they simply can’t put it to work again and we are talking about top equipment valued at over 100,000 USD.
We all expect too much of our machines, and usually forget they are just machines. Another different story when they were running smoothly until a new update is rolled out and then the nightmare begins.

WE definitely need more capable service partners globally, and better support times/procedures rather than “Please be sure to update to the latest preform and firmware versions”

It is well documented that both firmware and software have failed several times, I truly see no need to release so many new features and characteristics each month or quarter, instead the focus should be to optimize at its best current profiles and make them almost error free, yes everybody wants faster machines and better parts but never sacrificing reliability/precision.

So for complementing all the comments yes, grow as you see avoid service contracts which doesn’t reflect the value and if you are technically savvy then you probably can solve issues much better than a support representative.

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I’ve had some annoyances with the software and firmware updates but nothing show stopping. It remains to be seen if this equipment could last 15 years. I’m 2 years in on one machine and its going strong. @Andreasemilsson had over 10k hours on one machine before it gave out, I’m really interested in whether he is able to get that one going again. If I get that much out of my two I will be pretty happy but like him id like to be able to repair them and keep them going even as I upgrade over the years.

The big question posed here is whether it makes sense to buy the service plan and my answer to that is it depends. If I scale again its something I will seriously consider.

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I will keep you posted. :slight_smile: We have 3 machines and yes we do have the ESP, for us it has been worth it.

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@LEADNAV, it seems my guess was quite off and they didn’t announce any new equipment for the SLS side of things. So, if you think a second machine will pay for itself over a short period then go ahead and get it, but I don’t know how I feel about paying for the “support” based on all the crap you’ve had to go through and shared with the rest of us.

Honestly, it might be worth looking into the competition to see how it compares while working as a backup.

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Have you owned and worked closely with a brand from poland? In my experience the customer service will be far worst, it happened with zortrax and zmorph.

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