25 microns won’t necessarily turn out better
If you say so.
If you can export the sliced and supported model from the slicer you’re using for the (edit: oops not Moai) Monoprice as an stl or obj or other convertible mesh, you could even print the same model in the same resin at the same layer thickness across the two printers (and send the mesh to someone else to print on Form2/3).
This is exactly what I did to print the the model on my Form 1+, I exported the supported model as an STL, and simply printed it without generating any supports.
BTW, the print is finished and it looks great. I just need to remove it from the supports later this evening.
Today I will start the same print but on the MP MIni.
@Ike, I don’t have a Moai, I have a Form 1+, and a Monoprice MP Mini. The model was placed into Slic3r and I generated the supports inside that program, then exported the supported model to STL, which is what I printed on the Form 1+.
Update: The MP Mini never got a chance to finish the print because someone, at work, powered off the work bench on which I had the Mini, so it stopped about 1/2" into the build. There’s no apparent way that I can restart it from where it stopped.
The thinner layers are more susceptible to damage which can cause some irregularity to the layers
@IkeI did another post in which I posted a link to the already supported model you asked for. So if you’re interested in printing it, here is the link:
The spires coming off the ring in the middle, those didn’t have supports?
That looks like it’s PLA printed on a FDM printer.
So if you’re asking for suggestion on how to get more detailed, first get a more detailed model, second, print it on a SLA printer.
On a side note, after nearly a month of trying to get a handle on this printer, I had to call it quits. I just couldn’t get any reliable prints from it, so I returned it.
It doesn’t men I’m giving up on the idea of an MSLA, but that wasn’t it. In theory, it should have worked just fine. In practice, it turned out to be more than I wanted to deal with.
On my side, I have been a Form1, 1+ and now Form2 user and obviously, soon a Form3 user. I’m on the artistic side of the 3D printing for my 3D models, for figurine, cosplay stuff and more. I’m looking for fine details and -visual- accuracy for the details. I’m not doing functional parts and using almost only the Grey resin. Then my comments below are limited to these fields.
I have been looking at these low-cost printers since a while and I have been able to work with the Creality LD-001, the Wanhao D7, and the Anycubic Photon. The last one is the best so far and is the only one I kept and still using times to times. I also have the Slash PLUS from Uniz which is targeting the Form2 when you look at specs and price. This Slash has a build volume of 192x122x200mm which is bigger than the Form2. All these printers are MSLA/LCD SLA.
Of course, price is a key factor for these printers as the Photon is less than USD 300 and all of them can work with 3rd party resin and some of them are… cheap. I paid recently EUR 38 for 1L of Anycubic resin.
But now, if you put aside the price and look at performance, print quality, accuracy, etc. then it’s a different world compared to the Form2: For MSLA, you need to overexpose your model when you need to have supports which are reliable. Most of the time, if you don’t overexpose and/or use larger point size, they will just break. So many time I had failed prints because of that. But if you overexpose your resin, then you will have not the quality you are looking for. As an example, for these printers, I’m using 1mm support tip. Sometimes I even need more… Then imagine how bad are my surfaces and how much post work it requires. Also, because of the screen aspect, you see on curved surfaces the aliasing of the screen. We start to see some antialiasing technics, but it’s not perfect yet… The very cheap ones are using 1 LED which results in bad quality of prints when it’s not located in the center.
Then when it comes to the build volume, some of them can print tall models… but the depth axis is so short, preventing large models.
On top of that, look at the whole ecosystem: Preform is lightyear ahead of the other software. Only Mango/(WanhaoDWorkshop) is close. With most software, you can even add/edit supports which are inside your model. And when it comes to cleaning, you need to buy some containers, etc. I don’t even mention having support (through Formlabs, community or resellers)
The real benefit of MSLA is its cost but also its speed. I printed 19cm at 50 microns in less than 10h with the Slash+. Some printers are very popular and have a good community to help, but not all of them, by far…
Globally, my success rate with the Form 2 is 99% (just two prints failed since I have it and one was my own mistake…). With these printers, it’s so much lower. The preparation time is also a lot longer…
Then in a few words, if you want to try SLA and are on a budget, a printer like the Photon is a good choice. But if you want to be a minimum serious, the Form2 is a no brainer and I think the Form3, if it delivers what is announced with surface details (OMG 0.3mm supports tips!) and finishing, is the way to go. Yes, MSLA can print faster, but I prefer a working and good ecosystem, a slower printer which provides me surface quality and more important, is reliable and that I can trust to deliver my prints.
Sorry, it’s a long wall of text
Thanks for the reply. I understand exactly what you mean by the complete ecosystem, and I agree that some of the software is not that great, but on the other hand, some software is actually pretty darn good, and gives you options that are not available in Preform.
Have you tried ChiTu Box yet? It’s a pretty impressive piece of software. Some of the things I like, is the ability to select different size support structures. In PreForm, you can select the contact point size, but you can’t control the actual size of the support branches, with ChiTu Box you can do both. You can also select the geometry of those branches as well as how close or far from the model they are.
Here is a nifty trick: add a support that will fall onto a surface of the model (instead of the bed). If you don’t like where it placed the base, you can move it around to a better location, while the top part (where it supports the overhang), remains in place.
Since I returned the MonoPrice printer, I have printed a few models on my Form 1+, but I only used PreForm to send the print job to the printer, not generate supports. I’m now using ChiTu Box to generate the supports, then I save the model with the supports in place to an STL, import it into PreForm and click print.
Anyway, I plan on waiting for the Photon to go on sale, and as soon as it does, I’ll pick one up.
Yes, of course I know ChiTuBox. Most of all “chinese” 3D printer management tools are working almost the same way. Yes you have a lot of control with them because their algorithm support are not as smart as Preform. and then you need to compensate. Most of the time, a support which will fall on the model in Chitubox will not fall on the model in Preform. It’s very personal, but for me, Preforw works and do it well. But I have to confess, I’m a support ninja master and I’m preparing my models to avoid supports on the bad locations.
It’s great to have control, but too much control can be an issue. While I agree with you that Preform could be better, I think it does the job 99% of the time. And trust me, I’m used to deal with very complex models with crazy details and dealing with supports is always a pain.
As I mentioned previously, I gave up on the Monoprice Mini, and returned it for credit. This past Monday, I pulled the trigger on an Anycubic Photon. Amazon had it for $299, less $20 instant coupon, and I had 30+ points accumulated on my Amazon card, so the total cost to me, shipped was like $246.
Wednesday I got the printer, got everything set up, and sent the sample print to it. It failed, nothing stuck to the platform. So I dry run, and found that the platform was too far above the screen, so I re-calibrated it. The second test run was totally successful, which meant it was time to do a couple of my Warhammer miniature prints.
The first was a Chaos marine with a Gatling gun. This is a 32mm scale miniature (total height 41mm)
The next one was a lot more ambitious. A Custodian guard on a jetbike. There are a few problems with the model, but not because of the printer, rather lack of support in certain areas. Yet, it still still came out pretty good.
So far I’m actually pretty impressed with the Photon. The print quality is excellent, no visible lines and stable prints. The Photon slicer is not on a par with ChiTu Box.
Speaking of ChiTu, I found that while it does have the ability hollow out models, when you auto-generate supports, the internal supports are very sparse, and not always in the right place. So always check the inside of your model if it’s hollow, and add supports as necessary.
However, I love the ability to relocate the contact points by editing the support. This is especially useful when the support is inevitable placed on top of a model surface. You can move it to a less conspicuous location.
In the image below, the circled area shows where the original support landed. The arrows point to supports that were edited. The support that would have fallen in the middle of the bike wing surface was moved to the right so it falls on a rivet, which makes it easy to conceal. The third support was moved slightly toward the tip of the feather, and the other feather supports were moved outward to make sure they clear the model by a good margin.
Anyway, I plan on redoing the Jetbike as some of the feathers got mangled up, as they were not supported, and the detail on the top of the bike and a few other areas got lost because in my eagerness to clean the model, I took it outdoors to clean it, and even though there was no direct sun, some resin that was still coating the model cured almost instantly, obliterating some of the detail on top. Next time I’ll dunk it in IPA as soon as it comes out of the printer.
Here is a better view of theChaos Marine model, after it was primed, showing all the details. this is as good as anything I got from my Form 1+.
So it’s been a little over a week since I got the Photon, and I finished the 500ml bottle of translucent green that came with the printer. With only a couple of exceptions (both my fault), everything I printed came out perfect or nearly so.
That is pretty darn good, from a sub $300 resin printer. So I think it’s a keeper.
The quality is excellent, as good as, anything I got from my Form 1+. I’ll still keep the Form 1+, primarily because of the larger build volume. But for my miniatures, I think the Photon will be my go to machine.
Oh, as an added bonus, the resin is only about $38-42/liter (depending on color) through Amazon.com, with free 2 day shipping for Prime users
BTW, In another post, Craig Broady from Formlabs was talking about how he was able to tweak the support on the Form 3 so they “tear off like Velcro”. That’s exactly how the supports come off of these models. You pinch it near the connection point and pull the model off the supports. It even sounds like Velcro.
One more thing.
As most of you know, the Formlabs creates it’s layers by using the laser to draw the image, essentially creating a “tool path” which the laser (with the help of the galvos, follows. As such, the exposed area is made up of solid cured resin.
The MSLA printers like the Photon, shine a UV light through a mask displayed on an LCD. LCD panels are made of tiny square pixels, separated my an internal grid mask (which is used to hide the separation lines and increase contrast and apparent resolution). When the UV light shines through the LCD, it cures a bunch of tiny adjacent squares called voxels. These are so close together that they fuse into one contiguous surface, but in the right light at high magnification, they can be seen.
Here is an example of voxels. open up the close up image to see it at full resolution. The voxels can easily be seen. The image is a 12x enlargement over the actual size.
PreForm and Voxels
A very good print, you might be a little off on your description of a voxel - A volumetric pixel (volume pixel or voxel) is the three-dimensional (3D) equivalent of a pixel and the tiniest distinguishable element of a 3D object. It is a volume element that represents a specific grid value in 3D space. However, like pixels, voxels do not contain information about their position in 3D space.
You will find the grid you can see is actually the LCD screen matrix - if you magnify it its normally around 47um square. (We use digital microscopes and often see / measure that detail) It demonstrates good cure without light bleed
It is a good print though and the grid like texture appears uniform across its area which demonstrates reasonably even exposure power levels
I have a photon for a few months and just now managed to make supports to snap off like Velcro.
I am using prusa sli3er for supports ,then STL to default anycubic slicer for actual slicing, works like charm .
I had/have DWS XFAB, MOAI, XYZ Nobel 1.0A and the photon is my everyday go to machine if the print fits it. With proper dial in of the exposure parameters for each resin it works great for my tool shop prototyping prints. Also it works great with Bluecast resins for direct casting.
I am still eagerly waiting for my form3, this will be my first formlabs machine.
Also considering top down machine like milkshake or DIY