Tough 1500 failed prints resin or supports issue?

[Jonnyhifi]

Hi - I have a form 2 with tough 1500 - which has been sitting for 6 months or so (in the semi dark), as I’ve been working on other things.

Coming back to it - my small models keep failing, and I realised I’m finding it very difficult to understand the print failures. (To be fair my success rate from new tank and new resin has been 30% at best- and I’ve never used the machine for anything else - so I’m pretty sore the problem is me not the machine).

I’ve stirred up the resin in the tank - and the models nearly printed - but I suspect my issue is I don’t really know how to orient the part / arrange supports - but then again could the resin have gone off ?

I have found it difficult to track down a really good fault finding guide for what to do if prints fail. I have read the guidelines so understand about Inclining prints - supports being needed “for over hangs” and “bridges” working portly - but how would I know if mininrafts or full raft is better for example -
When should I increase the size of my supports / touch points?

Can I tell from looking at features from the failed prints? And if so what precisely? Are there any guides anyone could link to for analysing and “debriefing” failed prints ?

For example - two identical models on different bits of the build plate- One had become detached from the build plate, at perhaps 15% of the model, the other 80% printed and didn’t detach …

So I’m trying printing out with a full raft to see if that works better …

I’ve tried uploading pictures (from my phone) but it keeps claiming the pictures are too large. Grrr !

I e tried auto orientation auto supports in preform - and that certainly leads to failed prints …

Help!

Thank you …

[Titon]

Pictures would help of course. You might have to reduce the size of your images because the phone pictures will be to large to upload here.

That being said i love Tough 1500. I find the supports it generates can be a bugger to remove but i tend to remove them after cleaning when there softer before curing the part.

If your machine has been sitting for that long you could have dirty optics to begin with since dust will settle on the mirrors even if the unit is sealed. Leaving resin also sit that long can give you headaches. I use my Form 2 quite often and doing so keeps things moving.

As far as part orientation goes on the 2 most times you have to angle the part so it tends to build off it’s own substructure. Meaning angle the part so it tends to build off itself. There are many videos on the Formlabs site that discuss this when working with the 2.

Again until we see how you are setting your prints can we really help you get up and running.

[Jonnyhifi]

Thank you so much Titon!

Here are some pictures …

![IMG_6008|666x500] (upload://qsJND2jaGVipbZwvHd5Ygfm0o4r.jpg)

[Jonnyhifi]

Last night I did another print trying different orientations, and with full rafts, as from the pictures above I hypothesised that the problem is the supports not adhering to the build plate, and some googling suggested full rafts might help if this is the case.

In the previous bit of the post, I’d used “mini rafts” for this subsequent test I used “full rafts”.

Interestingly they look as though they’ve come out really well : This time I tired 3 objects, and all 3 objects seem to have come out pretty well. The rafts however have all curled away from the build plate, and are non flat, despite being monolithic : (I haven’t seen them in the flesh, I’m relying on these pictures i’ve been sent taken 20 hours after the print completed) … So I conclude my issues are to do with supports sticking to the build plate - or rather not sticking - during printing, and a non flat raft seems like a bad thing, to be overcome-but I’m at a loss how to do this…

When I come to pry them off for cleaning/ curing however, they feel very stuck to the build plate… it takes some force with a metal spatula for them to come off, whether failed or not.

So if you have any advice on how to stop the raft curling / stick all over, I’d be very interested- It feels like only once I’ve resolved that need I consider and possibly worry about specifics of support size/ density / touchpoints .

…

[Titon]

There is more than likely a few things going on wrong here. As stated the resin might be getting old especially if it’s been sitting in the tank. One thing you should be careful of is make sure you use the LT tanks with tough 1500. It is recommended and using the standard tank might give you fit’s. I recommend full rafts for this simply because the peeling force can pull those mini rafts right off. I have not had adhesion problems with the rafts coming up like that.

It’s difficult to see but it looks like you parts are not oriented in a way that they build off of themselves. There is a lot of force peeling those parts away the way they are set up on build platform. I would angle your prints up at a 45 degree angle so it builds off the corner of the part instead across like you have it. When the platform goes to release that part from the tank its getting pulled up all the way across it instead of a small corner at at time.

There is also the possibility that you still have dirty optics. Make sure the glass under the tank itself is clear of dust. It also show hints that the laser power might be low because the optics are dirty.

In the end you may have to check with support so you can send them a diagnostic file that the printer generates to show how healthy your machine is. That’s where you will find out how effective your laser power is.

[Jonnyhifi]

Thenk you so much for your thought and detailed reply.

I do use an LT tank - and the LT tank was new with this first bottle of resin - so crossed fingers that’s ok.

I’ll certainly check for dust - that’s an easy one to knock off the list.

Re orientation - I have tried various ways that all look somewhat like this (but due to small features on the part sticking out either side of the central spine, which are at various angles it’s pretty difficult to change the angle of the “h” shape too much - but perhaps you’re meaning rotating it’s long axis up and away from the build plate - that would certainly reduce the cross sectional area of each layer significantly and I haven’t tried that … clearly well worth a go, esp as I iterate this prt’s design it’s worth getting to print reliably as I’ll keep coming back doing slight modifications on it …

Thank you so much.

A combination of playing around in preform, and some more test prints next week - I’ll report back how it goes.
For now… .is this the sort of orientation you mean… ?
Thank you for your kindness in taking the time - I’m truly grateful.

[Jonnyhifi]

Thenk you so much for your thought and detailed reply.

I do use an LT tank - and the LT tank was new with this first bottle of resin - so crossed fingers that’s ok.

I’ll certainly check for dust - that’s an easy one to knock off the list.

Re orientation - I have tried various ways that all look somewhat like this (but due to small features on the part sticking out either side of the central spine, which are at various angles it’s pretty difficult to change the angle of the “h” shape too much - but perhaps you’re meaning rotating it’s long axis up and away from the build plate - that would certainly reduce the cross sectional area of each layer significantly and I haven’t tried that … clearly well worth a go, esp as I iterate this prt’s design it’s worth getting to print reliably as I’ll keep coming back doing slight modifications on it …

Thank you so much.

A combination of playing around in preform, and some more test prints next week - I’ll report back how it goes. Thank you for your kindness in taking the time - I’m truly grateful.

[Titon]

You are very welcome.

The orientation you have there is what I would do.

It will build from the corner up and retain those fine details.

[Jonnyhifi]

Finally got to see the parts !

They have warped and the raft is only partially attached to the bed (and didn’t take much force to dislodge them for cleaning) … so as well as reorienting I think I’m going to see what may be the culprits for rafts not sticking well to the print surface …

[Titon]

While i can’t see the latest print this seems to tell me you have laser power issues. I would bet money that your optics are dirty being the machine has sat and not been used for over 6 months.

[Jonnyhifi]

Titon - Thank you ! I have some that I can report … I’ve now washed and cured the three prints with “wonky rafts”. The models built well above the rafts, and I’ve put their pictures below. It took little force to pop them off the build plate though : they weren’t brilliantly adhered even on the bits that were adhered. I cleaned the build plate with IPA and it looks pretty flat (eyeballing with a straight edge against it:) at most .1 maybe .2mm deviations from flat at the worst, and the non flatness is gentle macroscopic dishing, rather than point “holes” or “dimples”. you can see a picture i took of the plate with the resin wiped back with a spatula… to see what it looks like. the slight scratches, I can feel by hand, but they aren’t gouges. Presumably scrapes from over enthusiastic use of a metal scraper by the previous owner. Maybe i should lap it smooth ? If so … any suggestion what sort of grit abrasive I should use ? I can just see the impression of the scratch marks on the underside of the cured rafts : ironically on the section that wasn’t adhered to the bed., but not obviously lined up with the delamination edge, so I think they are a red herring. I’ve had a look under the LT tank, and the glass is very clean : the odd spot of dust, but really very little, that only shows by reflecting light from a torch. (When I got the machine, I’d cleaned it so it was spotless).

[Jonnyhifi]

I enthusiastically printed a couple of these parts oriented as you’d suggested, as I showed above, with the updated “building off themselves” orientation with full rafts expecting them to come out fine and… nothing! shows o nt eh build plate post print. lol - I’m guessing that the prints delaminated, and there are two creatures lurking in the lagoon a tthe bottom of the tank… lol
Mmmm.
So … I’m not ignoring your observation about optics : but was reporting on the earlier stuff first ! When I return to the machine … I guess I should consider the optics next then. I’m rather wary however in taking the machine to pieces, as it obviously has a glass plate protecting the inside from atmospheric muck, and I presume is very delicate inside: I’d need to be super careful not to screw things up. Given the rest of the print has come out so well : wouldn’t that imply the laser is polymerising the resin correctly ? If it is dirty optics : is there an objective way of testing this before having the machine in pieces ? I also have read some references to “resetting z height” … could that be something I need to do ? (I will google and see quite what that means, but presumably that’s tied up with the machine knowing where the bottom of the build plate is.

[Jonnyhifi]

a ha ! here’s a Formlabs article on z compression affecting compression … look slike that is one to check. I’ll report back what I find! https://support.formlabs.com/s/article/Fine-Tuning-the-Form-2?language=en_US

[Titon]

As far as the plate goes unless there is some severe deep gouges i would not worry about that. That actually helps the rafts stick to the plate better. Should be some scuffing but again from what i can see it’s still looks like an optics issue.

Before you clean the machine contact support and have them take a look at your uploaded diagnostics. They can tell you how the laser is functioning.

[Jonnyhifi]

ty ! again very helpful : it’s really helpful to have feedback from someone more knowledgeable than me that the plate “feels OK”. Also the last part about Formlabs support is a massively helpful heads up : if I can use formlabs diagnostics to bolster my analysis of what’s happening- that sounds immensely helpful. Will report back ! Not least this thread might help someone in the future…

[Titon]

My pleasure. It is this forum that helped me at the start of my printing journey. Always look to give back if it helps.

[Jonnyhifi]

Ty !

after a fair amount of reading (and looking at preform ) - I realise that z compression is only available when printing directly on the build plate - if using a raft it is greyed out, however I notice that my raft is set at 1.5 Mm thick. - rather than the default 2mm, and a few of the other support settings are not “default” , so in the interests of starting from a recognised “normal” baseline I think I should reprint with default settings and see what happens … “calibrating z compression” is off the table for me in this print configuration, which makes life easier in one way - something I don’t have to fiddle with

[Jonnyhifi]

and indeed for future readers : the most useful links so far I’ve found from Formlab about non adhesion for prints on a form 2 : is firstly the trouble shooting guide https://support.formlabs.com/s/article/Non-Adherence?language=en_US which then leads me to a sub page https://support.formlabs.com/s/article/Fine-Tuning-the-Form-2?language=en_US#correct-non-adherence which interestingly talks about z fine tuning : on the printer, rather than in preform, so albeit above I concluded there was no “z compression” fiddling to be done : that is a preform setting, and the z fine tuning is a printer specific setting (not accessible via preform, only on the printer front panel…) which may therefor need to be looked at.

[karlmurray]

I’ve had constant issues form day one, disassembled multiple times cleaned cleaned again and again, levelled everything they say to do, ltrs of new resin.

I found the culprit finally. If you look at your supports they look like they are moving which indicates they are not rigid enough and therefor not cureing enough.

I had Black V4 and the supports were always rubbery never worked unless I printed directly on the build platform but you can only do that with simple models.

I tried last night open mode and castable setting as the laser intensity is highest as far as I know and boom it now works with supports.

Im still annoyed I got sent out a dodgy laser cuz the machine has been jeckal and hide since day one.

you may be having the same issue I had.

[Jonnyhifi]

thank you so much for your thoughtful detailed reply. Certainly something I shall try if I can’t get a resolution with the “normal initial steps” . unfortunately it may be a few weeks till I can get back to the machine and carry on bug hunting…