Replacement Fuse 1 not working - PART 2

[LEADNAV]

This is what Formlabs says:

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Normally the cause of birchbark is insufficient heat from the air heater, insufficient air being pushed through the air heater, or powder that has been through the print cycle too many times. The logs indicate fine air flow, good temperature at the air heater itself. and a 70% refresh rate should be high enough to not have birchbark. Increasing temperature as a rule most certainly does decrease birchbark and curling issues, but may cause bed tearing if we go too high. The surface armor does look a touch light in the print videos, so we could try going +.5 or +1 if you would like to try it for these prints. I would also check to make sure that the front door seal and the mating surface is clean so that the seal on the printer is relatively tight. I would also double check to make sure the IR sensor and cone are clean as small changes here can have a significant effect on print temperature. Other than that, the normal things we would check in the videos do look fine on this printer.

Another option for this print that would likely solve the issue is printing them with a little more space in front, possibly printing 4 instead of the 5 and moving them closer to the center of the build volume to give the parts a little more insulating powder between between them and the chamber wall.

When birchbark does occur, it is usually most prevalent on the front side of the printer facing the door as this is the coolest part of the printer due to the face that it has the door closest to it and it is furthest from the air heater.

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They are a little confused on what is in the chamber as there are “8 units” in there versus the recommendation of only running “4 units versus the 5” to move them away from the side walls… but they are suggesting that the front wall has this issue more than the sides as I suggested…

Also, 8 units per chamber is costly enough per part…if this was only a 4-5 unit chamber there would be absolutely no way that cost per part would make sense for production running end use parts…

[CARLAYERS]

Well, at the moment I can also speak of problems in paradise…

Over the last few months, we have occasionally noticed that some components have had a kind of “bump”. This happened occasionally and was sometimes more or less noticeable.
However, other problems then developed. For orders with larger quantities (100+) and special plug-in tolerances, we noticed that the dimensional accuracy began to fluctuate quite strongly. Deviations of +/- 0.2 to +/- 0.4 mm occurred here. In addition, we always had to arrange all components at an angle of at least 30°. Surfaces parallel to the printing platform were otherwise severely dipped and had to be sorted out during quality control.
We also had the feeling that the components were becoming increasingly brittle.

So we started printing the layershift and temperature tests to see if we could achieve improvements here.
The latter initially showed that our printing chambers were probably a little too hot, so we tried an offset value of -1.25°C determined by the test print. However, this made the “dents” in the components considerably worse. After a few test prints, we then discovered that these “bumps”, a kind of layer shift, were always at the same height in both of our build chambers.

After some back and forth with the support team, we were then asked to remove our print beds from the build chamber and check them.
It turned out that they had been assembled incorrectly. Apparently, formlabs had a batch of bad print beds.
We were sent corresponding instructions from formlabs on how to recognise these.

Now that we know that we have to replace the print beds, formlabs has sent us two replacements, which arrived today.
As we purchased the Premium Support package at the time of purchase (now there is only the one “complete service package”), we should also receive a maintenance appointment with a technician next week.

I really hope that the print beds will solve the problem, which strangely enough looks exactly the same in both build chambers.

The latest updates for the Fuse and in Preform were supposed to further increase the reliability and efficiency of PA12, which we would have been very pleased about if there hadn’t been other problems.

Sample parts from formlabs have always given us the impression that the orientation of the components really doesn’t matter with PA12 and can therefore be packed into the build chamber with absolute efficiency.
If this can actually be achieved, we are also very interested in the now announced Fuse Blast in order to be able to produce many parts in the shortest possible time.

Small addition: In this case, writing to formlabs support took us several weeks and we had to ask twice for a further answer, as the support agent was changed twice (due to illness). After we mentioned that we had also purchased a service contract, it felt much quicker.

Apart from the assembly method, the “new” print beds now also appear to be black. They do look quite good…
I think I will have further findings and results in about 2 weeks.

[LEADNAV]

Interesting…

We are currently only running one of our three chambers because of these inconsistencies in the other two.

We recently received this email from support

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"Just wanted to let you know that your equipment is due for Preventative Maintenance included with your Service Plan.

The visit takes between 3-6 hours to complete. Basically we will replace some consumable components such as filters, lubricate and apply new threadlock inside the Build Chambers, and generally clean and inspect your machines for a few key items. Frankly though the Build Chamber maintenance is the most tedious and most important part of the visit.

To start the scheduling process please fill out our [On-Site Visit Survey] so we can see your availability over the next few weeks, along with some other basic information for the tech coming out to you.

If you have any questions about this process or the visit itself feel free to ask."

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This was sent back on November 16… said “preventative” but they also sent us two new build chamber plates with the shipment of consumables for those two chambers…no mention of faulty equipment…

We also filled out the survey and been back a fourth but still no one has shown up on scene to do this maintenance. Last time we went down this warranty road of troubleshooting it was essentially like pulling teeth to finally get anyone on scene as we too paid for the full service plan. They were unable to resolve the issues “on scene”… once they did show up and it took more troubleshooting on our own to get things running again.

We are also in our Service expiration window and we were notified of that… and if we wanted to renew contact support. We asked and still no response in renewing this “full service plan”… We were told that sales would contact us with pricing options… which I find the whole thing kind of funny because our service so far was them shipping us and replacing faulty equipment that should have been covered under a warranty…and they refuse to actually show up on scene as promised in the service.

Back when we bought the system we paid for on scene delivery and installation…which they never showed up for as well.

Will let you know how the next few weeks go…keep us posted on the chambers.

Damian

[Andreasemilsson]

Did they show up?

[LEADNAV]

They did.

But now I’m seeing that random layer line “bulge” as posted above…

[LEADNAV]

Ever since the annual service guy showed up and “re did” all our chambers…we are now seeing this same “layer bulge” in both of our chambers in every print

[Andreasemilsson]

Wow, did they really tear the chambers apart and align the buildplate, clean the leadscrew etc? Did they leave a servicerecord on what they did? Cause you should not have these buldges after a serviced buildchamber.

[LEADNAV]

Yes I was in the room when he did them. I just used my third chamber and it seems to be fine but the other two are both doing the layer bulging at similar heights.

[Andreasemilsson]

At similiar heights, seems quite strange tbh. I´ve never had that issue and we have 6 buildchambers. Never seen any bulges either to be fair. Layerlines yes but the only thing i´ve ever encountered when i´ve serviced the chambers is that they are dirty as hell inside. Nothing´s ever been misaligned or anything like that. And our printers basically work 24/7. Maybe luck, i don´t know. I do take care of em, set up my own serviceschedule etc and after a certain amount of printhours i tear them down and clean and lube em up good.
Fingers crossed i didn´t jinx it now.

I hope you get it solved.

[LEADNAV]

The “Bulges” look identical to what CarLayer up in this thread posted and has good photos of.

Here is a highlight from him of what he experienced

After a few test prints, we then discovered that these “bumps”, a kind of layer shift, were always at the same height in both of our build chambers.

After some back and forth with the support team, we were then asked to remove our print beds from the build chamber and check them.
It turned out that they had been assembled incorrectly. Apparently, formlabs had a batch of bad print beds.
We were sent corresponding instructions from formlabs on how to recognise these.

Now that we know that we have to replace the print beds, formlabs has sent us two replacements, which arrived today.
As we purchased the Premium Support package at the time of purchase (now there is only the one “complete service package”), we should also receive a maintenance appointment with a technician next week.

I really hope that the print beds will solve the problem, which strangely enough looks exactly the same in both build chambers.

I would pull these apart but I am hesitating to do so because I’ve literally only run them 2-3 times since the Formlabs rep was here who totally ripped them apart and serviced them with the “new” black beds installed.

Whenever these issues pop up it’s tough, it sucks to troubleshoot…when doing big parts you essentially lose the entire job as there is a bulge across them all leading to losing around $600 at a 70% refresh needed to run Nylon 12 GF…with every attempt.

Will wait to see what Formlabs support says before I start pulling them apart this week but right now I have one chamber it appears that is working good.

[Andreasemilsson]

Was your chambers performing well before the service? Did he replace the beds when serviced?

[LEADNAV]

Correct… I have never seen this “bulge” issue prior to the on scene service on these chambers. I was seeing a ton of “elephant skin”, Birch Bark, or whatever were calling it (see my posts further up in thread and photos) appearing out of nowhere. This is along the sidewalls and something I have never seen happen before. Appeared after some firmware updates.

Messing with Bed target temps to try and eliminate this issue now, and the service rep came on scene after this issue appeared with these layer bulges starting on these chambers after he pulled them apart and “upgraded” the beds on them.

[Andreasemilsson]

We also had birchbark on our Fuse1+ until a serviceguy came on site and asked why the Fuse 1+ was not on a line conditioner. I told him we´d order one for the Fuse1+ and once we got it the birch bark disappeared for good.

Well i´ve never seen these bulges before and i hope i don´t have to.

Best of luck @LEADNAV and thx for sharing your experiences.

/A

[LEADNAV]

Line conditioner…? Our Fuse1+ is on a higher end backup battery supply plugged into a dedicated 20amp. Our service guy didn’t mention a “line conditioner”. He did confirm we had a good power supply and we’ve been running that for a few years prior to birch bark appearing.

Support online said it’s most likely from air changes around the side walls of chamber but again the service guy confirmed we have this machine in a controlled environment with no more than a 25% humidity level and pretty well maintained room.

And we never had birch bark before on the same print jobs… lot of what we’ve experienced in troubleshooting has appeared in “firmware updates”… but like to know more about this “line conditioner”?

[Andreasemilsson]

In some parts of the world the electricity is dirty and need a line conditioner or an ups (battery backup). So you are all good there.

[br4n_d0n]

After reading this and the other threads for the Fuse, it seems like they need to steer away from a heated chamber and focus on getting the laser to be more powerful to account for the lack of heated powder. This should also make the powder more reusable as only the areas close to the laser should be affected by the heat. These are just my thoughts.

[CARLAYERS]

I can confirm that after we had the print beds replaced here, we no longer have this fault. In fact, of the two build chambers we have, I replaced the print bed myself on one of them because the technician’s appointment was delayed by a few days. I can’t see any difference between the two build chambers in terms of print quality. Replacing or removing the print bed is not particularly difficult, with a little patience and careful work it can be done in under 30 minutes.
We were sent instructions beforehand, which also show the difference between a good and a bad print bed.
It is indeed very strange that this now occurs after a service job. However, I would definitely say that Formlabs should take care of the replacement and compensation of the powder in this case. At least in our case, Formlabs was quite accommodating with replacement powder for the corresponding failures with defective parts, absolutely fair compensation from support at this point. At that time, however, we still had the maintenance service contract. We no longer have this. I would hope that Formlabs will still react in the same way here, but I don’t know. So far, however, we have had good experiences with Formlabs support.

Link to the instructions we received:
FUSE1CYL - CHECKING THE PRINT BED ASSEMBLY (WH) for PKB (1) 06.10.2023

[LEADNAV]

Appreciate the info.

Yes this is exactly what we are seeing on two of our chambers after the service done on them. Never had this issue before. Now we are just playing “musical chairs” back and fourth with multiple Formlabs support reps to verify what we are seeing.

This has been my biggest problem with Formlabs support… they are very responsive but every week you get a new rep on the same issue and its a multiple month battle just to prove to them that there is in fact an issue with the system…

And yes we are still paying for maintenance as we just extended it on the last on scene service call.

I also have no problem swapping the beds myself…but I figure it would be ridiculous to have to do so after we had a service rep on scene who swapped the old beds for the new beds specifically for this reason…

[LEADNAV]

To trouble shoot the two Chambers producing the “bulge”…support just asked me to “disassemble the one remaining Chamber that I have working”…to put that bed into one of the other two to try…

Essentially risking not having any functioning chambers… I can’t do that as I have parts and contracts to fulfill and too risky…

Will see what they say but I found that to be a funny request in my current situation. I may be able to find the old beds in our warehouse…not sure if the rep left em here with me but since he flew in I believe he did. These were the old style but did not cause the bulge so maybe I could try that or just pull one apart and see if they are assembled correctly.

[SSI2022]

@LEADNAV thanks for taking the time to layout your experience. Man I have been there and went through multiple emails to explain the overbake situation on the Fuse1 with PA12. Just recently tested the newest firmware/software and so far so good. I’m still on a 10w machine and was looking to try and update to the 30w, but dang dude… I see no economical path to do that and I’m starting to look into dumping this SLS altogether. I make end use parts for a living and just can’t go through what all you have and survive. Ever thought about trying to sell everything you got and going with a 3d system SLS 380?