Envisiontec... Are they for Real?

What are they thinking?
I was quoted almost $30,000 USD for there Vida which has a Build Plate half the size 3x5, no Wiper and no Resin Cartridge. Is it really a better printer?

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Would you trade your Formlabs in?

Did anyone actually look at the specs? All of their desktop printers are DLP based, so they’re not in the same class as the FormLabs. The largest one, the Vida, has a 5x3x4 (approximately) build, not even that of a Form 1+. I’m not sure how one could compare the 2.

DLP printers can be had for 1/2 the price of a Form 1+, and unless Envisiontec sell theirs for about $1500-1700, they’re not a good deal, nor are they anything special.

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It does seem like you get a far more crisp print from laser than from DLP in my experience yeah…

Whaha, nice!
I guess it’s time for a 1 on 1 comparison.

I’m not convinced spec-wise.

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By the way, we had an envisiontech sales guy over here. When we started talking about formlabs they were simply said… offended.

He claimed that the formlabs F2 print quality goes down significantly after a year or just start to fail. He wanted to offer us a machine with similar specifications(but DLP). Price? Around 80.000 euro.

He couldn’t give us the answer why it would be better to buy their 80k machine, when we could also replace our F2 machine every 6 months for a new one and do this for the coming 10 year to break even… LOL.

I think they finally start to feel the heat… :slight_smile:

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Did they said why Form 2 print quality goes down significantly after a year??? What is the reason?

Oh dear. Bad form when you try to slag off a machine that costs 1/20 of the one you are selling but can produce equally good prints. At the moment the machine that looks most likely to give the form2 a run for its money is the xfab, but it’s 2 grand more to buy and way more expensive to run.

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No reason given. They are only referring to failures caused by improper use/lack of maintenance of the F2.

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Well… Let’s not get ahead of ourselves. Failures can be caused by many things, and not just “improper use”. Bad resin, bad orientation, dirty mirrors, failing components.

Usually a DLP printer has a lot less parts that can go bad. There is no laser, there are no galvos, or mirrors (depending on design there might be 1 or 2 mirrors). But there’s always the peel motor and Z motor that can go south.

Never the less, a DLP should in theory last longer than a laser based unit, but because it’s bound to the bitmap resolution of the projector, the quality of the print might suffer, When you take a 1080p projector and you concentrate the entire resolution on a 2" x 1.5" surface, the quality is pretty amazing, but once you use the same resolution and try to spread it across a 5" x 3" build area, your X/Y resolution is effectively quartered.

Yes, it’s substantially better than FDM, but not up to the same standards as a laser.

They showed pictures of resins not sticking to the build platform (same as their ad). Nothing that can’t happen with their printer.
The F2 is a pretty amazing machine, if something goes bad, support quickly resolves it(I got new parts for free). I know the F1/F1+ has it’s problems, and that’s why there is an F2 with all the improvements.

DLP printers have trays you still need to replace and don’t forget these expensive light sources. The resin is a little more expensive than formlabs but comparable.

What I’m saying is that they don’t have an argument at all. Making the printer last longer is no argument for printing some prototypes of your products(unless you do 24/7 production). The developments are going so fast(SLASH for example) that probably in two years time I can buy a better machine than the F2 and wouldn’t have a problem with throwing it away. When I invested 80k euro however… that’s a different story.

Do I want to know for sure that I can always print parts? Hell, why not buy 2 printers every six month for the coming 5 years.

If they came with a justifiable argument to invest 20 times as much money, we might have done it, they simply couldn’t.

Ugh ugh ugh. I think my biggest pet peeve in the world of additive manufacturing is the use of the word “grow” to describe printing. I can’t be the only one.

Sorry, totally unrelated to OT.

Not cool of EnvisionTec, also not very effective it seems. This might be the master strategy of SSYS soon enough. :wink: “Trade in your ****** Makerbot Gen5 for a new F-Series! You can still print in god awful PLA, but for even more money!”

Sorry, I’m done.

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Since the Form2 has barely been out for a year I doubt they have any data to back up claims of failure like that.

For Form2 I’d say if your printer works well when you first get it, it should work fine for a very long time unless you spill resin inside or something.

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Stratasys bought makerbot so I doubt that. :wink:
Makerbot is in bad weather anyway. Too much competition and their quality is lacking.

“For Form2 I’d say if your printer works well when you first get it, it should work fine for a very long time unless you spill resin inside or something.”

I thought the same thing way back when for the Form 1. History has proven this to be incorrect for me. The 1+ is better.

They are lasting me about 8 months instead of 2… :rolling_eyes:

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We have both systems, a Envisiontec (Perfactory) a Form 2. And a DWS 029X as well. I use each system for complete different applications. The Envisontec machines are perfect for small and very small parts when details, dimensional accuracy and perfect surface quality matters. Envisontec uses their ERM pixelshift technology to increase the resolution on some machines. In this case, if printed with a high resolution in all three axis, you won´t see any artifacts or layer structures with your eyes only. The downsides are the expensive price (machine and consumables) and the small build area. And yes, you have failed prints on Envisontec machines as well (caused by file errors, incorrect calibration or weak supports e.g.).

The Form 2 we use for bigger parts, which will be too expensive on the Perfactory or the DWS. I love the Form 2 as it is really easy to use and there is a big community. The quality is much better, then expected (almost as good as the DWS if you have parts with no extreme details) and the resins are cheaper, compared to the others. The downsides are the limited Open-Mode, too heavy support structures, accuracy is not the best and the fast clouding of the tanks. But overall the Form 2 ist the best value for the money at the moment in my opinion.

I can´t speak for the Vida and Micro series from envisontec. But from the specs, I would prefers to go with an Asiga PicoHD2 / Pico Pro printer or would have a closer look on the new B9 Core… both are much cheaper (you can keep your Form 2 and don´t have to give it to ET for payment) and both are open for all resins.

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I’m not sure about that, the Muve3D printers have a large plate and great resolution.

Forget the Xfab - trust me. It is not made for jewelry and can only be run when you have internet connection and they limited it for jewelry. Absolute NO GO in these times!

If the main concern is the build envelope then definitely steer clear of Envisiontec. But if you need to print with super high detail, like jewelry, then Envisiontec is the only way to go really.

The $30k quote is for one of their new CDLM units that prints continuously. So you get very high detail in about 1/8th the time of a standard DLP. Probably 1/15th the time of an SLA that spends so much time border/hatch/filling.

If you’ve seen the Carbon3D video the Vida prints in the same fashion. No peeling, no wiper knocking things over, nothing. Literally printing on an air bubble.

If I had that kinda coin I’d have one in my shop for sure.

Let’s see, no pricing on the website and small build envelopes. Their entry level machines aren’t for me.

If you start talking about pricing in the 30K range it’s pretty easy to find a used 3D systems or Stratasys machine that is a proven industrial machine. They’re more costly to run compared to a Formlabs but if you want to print for industrial customers it’s probably a better option. The build envelope is fairly large and the supports won’t leave marks on the parts.

There are a ton of printers out there but the Formlabs has a decent build size with fairly refined software and decent support. Their materials are a little pricey but very reliable.