Print and Cast with FireCast resin


#5

Yes, in the pictures because of the enlargement the roughness shows a lot. Looking at it bare eyes showed little. What I think is achievable in this resin is the depth of the roughness. I scraped the surface with a 400 grit sand paper and I left with a flat solid surface which I can polish to achieve the shine. The ring was designed, printed and casted for an old jeweller friend of mine in 18k white gold with palladium base alloy. The investment powder I used was R&R white gold investment. I think it’s formulated to have the strength for white gold casting. I have not tried others as this has been the one that works for me when cast with ET easy cast and B9 Red. The latest oven cycle was : Bring temp up to 80 degrees celsius then hold for 3 hrs (this would slowly evaporate the liquid under boiling point), then 250C hold for 1 Hr , then pump up to 800C hold for 2 hrs then down to 550C hold for 1Hr then cast. I don’t know how to upload the image from my IPad to show you. When I get home I will.
Thongie


#6

OK, here’s the investment I use.


#7

You should try using a bonded investment, like a dental investment. It should hold together much better and result in better surface quality.


#8

Excellent start! Very happy it casted.

So after talking with our local caster, we suggest revisiting the heat cycle. Basically, as this is a 2 stage burnout process, most of the components burn out at around 500F. This should be visible and requires the most time to burn out. Second serious burn out stage is higher up around 1200F. Here is a schedule that he has successfully used with FireCast:

300F - 1 hour
520F - 2-3 hours (All this depends, obviously, on the size of the model. You’ll start to see some of the components leave)
800F - 1-3 hours (Burns off quite a bit more)
1350F - 2 hours (Finishes burning off the rest of the components)

Then you can bring it down to what you need the mold temperature to be for the metal your casting with.

Hope that helps on your next go!


#9

Many thanks to you guys for the advises, will try that out in the later days. For now happy printing for the orders. Try to put the machine for better use after it has been idle for months.
Thongie


#10

Here are pictures of the finished ring above. Still in the process of trying out different burnout parameters.
Thongie



#11

Here I have achieved better improvement with the latest burnout cycle and new casting alloy.


#12

No offense, but those castings are terrible. Look at the prongs. They are stumps or blobs not prongs.

It seems like the resin is over-curing past the layers badly and also is not burning out cleanly.

Back to the drawing board MadeSolid!


#13

Hello, personally i think its the resolution, 100 microns is just not fine enough… i would love to see 25 micron print and casts ! as if this machine is up to scratch with what it says it can do… and all the bugs im reading about are being solved this would be a bute of a machine !

try casting at 25 Microns…


#14

Hi, My name is Celso Pedrazzini , I am writing from Brazil. I am a Jwellery Gold maker over here. I would like to know if anyone can give some more information for me. Anyone already did a print with 0,25 mm? It also will be so helpful for me if you guys can give any contact , someone who me do a simple ring Project for me. I can pay for it. I would like to see how thick the surface of the ring likes with 0,25 mm. Sorry about my English. Thank´s very much. Best,


#15

Since there no alternative direct casting resin for Form1 yet, its worth while for me to give it a try. The point I try to share here is the defect on the surface of the cast causes by ash and thermal expansion. The first ring was done with the latest burnout setting shows trace of both defects. The second ring with the use of different alloy shows less defect on the surface of the cast with build lines still visible. The third ring casted with the use of dental investment suggested by Monger shows smoother surface but incomplete parts (I might be using the wrong dental investment). This investment was tough and so hard to remove. It may work well if cast using dental casting apparatus. Printing at 25micron with this resin would yield a much better detail, but I have doubts. All the metal casted can be finished with little effort in sanding and minor touch up and with a little polish would bring out the shine. In my opinion, I think I can get around casting FireCast. The problem here is not so much in casting but printing. I hope that MadeSolid will do more fine tuning to achieve better prints. This is just my experience with FireCast, and there may be someone out there might have better result than I have. Until FormLab put out their Direct Casting Resin I will continue to use FireCast, but wait until its more mature.
By the way, is there anybody know or heard anything more from FormLab Team RE: Direct Casting Resin??? Its been a year now since the day I received my form1.


Thongie


#16

first time posting here. sorry if i mess it up

I was one of the testers for made solid . I did test 3 different resins from them. The print Quality was not great on the first two resins. (be sure to post cure. it helps) The final resin was very good. It did have small amount of ash after my burn test

@Aron_Thongie @Monger_Designs : about the rough castings i think it is probably 1 or more of 3 things ( 1: to fast at the beginning burn out causing to much stem pressure. 2 plastic being driven into the mold ( if the top is hot and plastic melts but the center is still cold it has no place to go ) 3 : plastic absorbing some of the water in the investment ( take a print scrap set it in water for 2 hours then take it out and check it by looking and scraping it.)

I think the biggest problem with casting any of the resins are the expansion differences between the investment and the resin being used, ash content. The caster needs to relearn how to set up the burn cycle.

In the past I’ve cast all sorts of organics and traditional injection plastics.
The biggest hurdle to overcome is understanding how things behaves at different temperatures and how they are different from wax.

Keeping these things in mind you now have to look at the plastic that you’re using.
Take a small piece of plastic on a piece of metal melt it, burn it. See what it’s doing. Look at the ash and how long it takes to clear the carbon.
See what’s going to happen and how does it get affected by the different temperatures. ( this is how to create a burn cycle for your needs )

Some things that should be considered is that water that’s is present.( i am told that some resin will draw in water, I think if it does then spray it with a bit if hair spray or lacquer) Traditionally we use the water present in the investment to create steam (don’t let it boil) to push the wax out of mold, by doing so slowly at 300° we clean the mold of most of the injection type waxes.( THIS ANT THE CASE WITH PLASTIC )

Once the mold is dried of all water its brought to 500 to 600 and remaining wax begins to burn (don’t boil it that leads to rough castings) Leaving a carbon residue and often small amounts of ash. ( i found in the past most of the plastics have begun to liquefy between 300 and 500° ( try to melt it out instead of boiling or burn)

Most traditionally jewelry investments have a large expansion point between 500° and 600°.(GO SLOW investment is an insulator and will crack if inside is cold and out side is to hot) If you raise past this temperature to quickly you will damage the mold. A smaller expansion is also present around 900 but not a big deal.

The next stage ramping up to the final burnout temperature. You need to consider the size of flask and investment and that’s going to give the ramp speed.

As a caster for over 25 years I found most jewelers including myself forget to consider how long it might take for the carbon to gasify into carbon dioxide. This does not happen until about 1100° and actually does a lot better at 1200°. A key component for carbon gasification is oxygen. Most jewelers use a traditional electric oven that do not allow enough air into the chamber while it’s at that temperature. The rule of thumb is that you need to leave your flask at that temperature until all black is gone inside the flask as fare as you can see inside it. I would recommend 1200° for no less than two hours for a 2 inch flask and up to 6 to 8 hours if you have a lot of plastic inside or a larger flask …

Also you should try to flip your molds over so that the sprue is up after you hit 1100. By doing so you introduce oxygen into the chamber and help with the gasification of the remaining carbon and lets it breath out of the flask

@Monger_Designs : the dental and hi temp platinum investments are generally not porous and work better with spin casting and pressure over vacuum induction casting. The investment removal is also much harder usually requiring water pressure blasting, glass bead blasting or dangerous acids. I would recommend trying to stay away form these investments if you can. I have them, I use them and try not to if possible.


#17

Stephen, my casting guy has more than 30 years experience and he has casted the envisiontec resin, the b9 resin, the kevvox and asiga resins. He did it using the same burnout processes that uses for wax and casting plastics. The point is, if the resin is truly castable, then you don’t have to jump through hoops to cast it. From what I have seen so far, the madesolid resin is not truly castable yet. In fact they keep changing their formulas.

If you have successfully casted it, then maybe you should post some photos here.


#18

hey if that is your first time using dental investment you did good.
try adding very fine vents to one of the last part the metal fills this kind of investment is not permeable of gasses for the most part.
I had an old JALRUS dental induction caster for years. it was a over pressure type and that was the trick to make it work well for platinum ( very fine fishing line vented to the bottom) ( and I got a small pecs of great wire to boot)


#19

@Monger_Designs : you are right you should not have to jump through any hoops to have great casting.
I was not trying to ofend you

As we all know casting is a skill set and an art form .
That being said , I have had the same rough castings from wax, plastic, wood. shell. bone. and much more
this is what I found the cause to be most of the time. ( I forgot to consider or I was just being lazy )
My self and friends that have come together to help sort out a problem they or I where having

If I look at what is happening in the proses then I can start to find out what might be going wrong

as a caster and jeweler it is always about the little details when something goes wrong
and remember that you don’t work platinum the same way we do silver or steel, gold aluminum or even lead they are different. What we can get away with on one you can’t on the other.

if you want an injection wax behavior use injection wax. This is a light cured resin not wax. It will likely never be the same because it is not the same so just learn what it need to be a great tool to work with.

I thought that this was a place to try to help and support each other. I might be wrong ?


#20

The photos and report are not mine to post I wish I could…

I will be setting up me new form1 next week and will be trying to cast the form one gray and clear resin and when i get the printer running great i will be getting the made solid resin and testing that for print quality and casting more jewelry related items with it .

the ones that made solid sent where definitely not high detail prints and most where not jewelry based…
i will try to post in 2 weeks or so some of the results good and bad

can you tell me wether the gray or clear gives the best details i will be only printing at .025mm

thanks


#21

@steven_Drysdale, I like the way you think, this quote is great.
@Monger_Designs, I respect you a lot Monger, but let’s encourage Steven’s efforts.

I noticed you both make a lot of references to moisture in your resin, have you considered burying the print in a container of desiccant? You would not believe the drying power of desiccant for jobs like this.


#22

@JoshK that is a great thought I never considered looking for it. I do use desiccant a lot for keeping things dry.( most of them from shoe boxes and such)

as for drying the print? no that is not what I was saying.

1 1/2 years ago I was researching the cast ability of from1 as I know that is the direction that i wanted to go in 2 years, after selling my retail store and manufacturing to my employees.

I went to a medical device trade show in Boston to look at the form1. they had a both at the show. Spent an hour trying to talk and ask questions? knowing that the cast ability was the key for me.
The initial tool cost was not so bad after buying my laser welder 14 years ago ( best 38k I ever spent (never did replace the torch though)) ( i miss it )
any way spent the next 6 months learning more about the different printers and how they worked. There costs( WHOLE CRAP A LOT OF MONEY( and the consumables looked more like ink jet primer biz. plan))
I found several printers that where more entry level 5 to 15 k
not so good on resolution though?
In searching I ran across a chemical engineer that I talked with about why you can’t cast some resins. Long story short bad tendencies: to much carbon bad expiation habits and could absorb water when soaked ( getting the surface distortions and expansion)
Ok I can deal with all of that . Ceramic shell casting and a light coating of lacker at worst or just use my platinum investment (that stuff is like stone (ok it is stone))

to put it all down to it most of the resins can be cast you just need to look at what it needs different and you are good to go.

I was told you can’t cast bone and I had no problems at all once I learned to flip the flask and pull out the ash first

seashells a bit harder but doable. spiders now that was easy to do C.A. for wood a torn peace of paper to suck up the extra and you are on the money.

I think that any thing is doable some times not smart though.

Josh thanks for the support. Also that I can by that stuff at amazon thats my next stop.


#23

@Steven, yes! I believe this is the place where we can try to help and support each other. I have given up casting formlabs resin for a while now. Please share with us what you can achieve when cast Formlabs, and MadeSolid resins.
Thongie


#24

I will keep you up on it …
I for the first time have been abel to do a burn test on form 1 clear resin .
I found that after post cure under a halogen light for 30 min. the resin gets tack free and does not absorb any water after a 2 hour soak.
it does seam to get slick with a soak in denatured alcohol.
when you burn the resin it does start to crystalize, burn, shrink then tern to carbon type blob finally to a small round ash nugget? IT should be abel to be removed from flask if reverse vacuumed before casting

ok so I will try to do a small vid of it or just a photo group if i can get them up.

my prints have not been as good as i had expected ( likely to be something I am doing?)
I will clean 2 models so that they will be what I would call usable.
I will start a support ticket tonight after i have photos of the prints to send them.

I will try casting in the next few days.
i will post my casting profile and i will set up a investment and resin that is open to look at any reaction with investment as it heats up.