Form 3L Issues

Hopping back here to give some updates on our side.

Some other pain points I’m seeing with the 3L:

  • Print times are inaccurate again just like with the F3 launch

  • Preform is laggy for larger models which makes slicing big parts a pain because I often go in and manually edit supports

  • Support generation is overkill right now, making it hard to remove supports because there are too many that are generated. Also - the angle of supports entering the model seem to be way too sharp, causing support tip “merging” into the model. You can see this on my Tough 2000 print, where the support touchpoints are huge and don’t break off the model properly near the bottom. If you look very closely, you’ll see that the support structure starts merging into the model before the actual tip contacts the model.

I’m hoping that after some updates the machine will be up to my standards, but right now it’s not.

Also - I’ve purchased the spatula directly from the manufacturer. It’s this model number: http://www.nisaku.co.jp/product/for-diy/scraper-knife/no-5340/

Combining the spatula/scraper after using the side cutters has been working flawlessly for me 100% of the time.

I also modified the wash bucket with some air bubblers to get some agitation going. This was an easy 1 hour mod: https://photos.app.goo.gl/7Mh7KzXwEdwQvE998

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Do we have to contact them or can it be purchased in the site?

You have to email them.

Cool, thank you!

Regarding prints on the 3L, since my last post about it, I’ve been doing nothing but print in Rigid 4000.
No idea why but after around 20 prints and 8 litters of resin, I have to conclude that ALL prints were absolutely perfect in every way. The largest one I did had ~1600 layers and came out without any flaw.

Maybe I got a good tank, maybe it’s the resin itself, but what matters is that it works so I’m using it all I can until my luck runs out.

Also, and considering the large amount of IPA / TPM I now have to use, I have a new toy:

My main concern was the environmental impact because it’s hard to find any decent solvent treatment center around my area. This way the resin residues (and other unidentifiable things that end up there) are left in a plastic bag while the IPA is recycled back to a container which is a very welcome bonus.

I had a few containers stored with heavily used IPA (usually more than 100 cleanups each) and I was amazed to see that almost half of it was actually residues after spending the whole day yesterday recycling them.
No noise and no smell during the process (which is all automated apart from filling the bag with used IPA and removing it in a very clean way), just a bit of heat in that area. Also being a very small machine (45cm x 75cm and 1 meter height including the feet) means I didn’t have to find a large area to install it.

I still can’t recycle TPM because the machine only goes up to around ~220º (~170 of actual heating) and I require a vacuum addon which I was told that it makes a lot of compressor noise and the smell is exhausted to the outside. Neither of those cons is appealing to me.

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Glad it’s working out for you Eks!

I ran a test with mine issued from support. It printed great although I do see layer lines in the print but believe it has to do with orientation more than anything. I have been using strictly grey v4 for my tests simply because it is the cheapest.

I did setup a conference call with support to get some insight into exactly what is the best way to print with this beast. Hopefully get some insight into it.

Interesting! I need to try rigid 4K when I get a new tank. I suspect rigid will print better because it’s stiffer so there’s less of a chance of layer lines.

To me, it looks like, aside from the intense tank warping issue, the 3L struggles to print large parts without a few random layer lines on the parts…something I’m sure can be fixed by tweaking print settings and/or tank tensioning/design.

Do you mind sharing where you bought this and for how much? Seems like a good way to reduce waste.

Also how long does the process take and is it safe to leave unattended?

Sure!
I used the “Request Info” button on this page: IST C1-C2 | IST - Italia Sistemi Tecnologici
Then I was contacted by them (from Spain) in an hour or so and they were simply amazing from the initial contact all the way to installation.
If you’re outside Europe you waste nothing in contacting them just to see if they have representation in your country.

The link above is for the small machines like mine. They’re two (C1 and C2) and the only difference is that the C1 holds 10L and the C2 holds 15L. They basically said the C2 was too much for me based on the usage because I could simply use the 10L one two or three times in a row to get the job done. At least they didn’t try to sell me the more expensive one.

Regarding prices, this is what I got (you need to add VAT):

  • C1: 2050€
  • C2: 2640€
  • Each bag for the C1: 1.75€
  • Each bag for the C2: 1.89€
    (bags are sold in 100 units)
  • Optional additional pneumatic vacuum generator (for higher temperatures): 2400€

For me this is mainly justifiable for waste management and IPA logistics. For someone to justify it paying for itself then it would have to be a considerable amount of IPA.

Regarding the process:

  • Set your desired temperature and add 50C (for example, IPA boils at ~90C so you set it at 140C)
  • Set the failsafe temperature (if it exceeds it shuts down the machine) at a recommended +20C than the above.
  • Insert the bag into the steel tub and then pour the liquid (used IPA in my case) into it.
  • Point the hose to an empty container (that can hold at least the amount you poured in even though it’s always much less)
  • Set the timer to how many hours/minutes you want
  • Turn it on

It then starts slowly heating (like a Form Cure :P) and it starts pouring the clean IPA through the hose.
I was recommended 2 to 3 hours for the timer and then see how it goes. After around 90 minutes with roughly 9L of dirty IPA it stopped dripping clean IPA so I would say around 2 hours (just to be sure) for the full 10L.

It can be left unattended if you follow the safety instructions (temperature threshold, locking the tub correctly, leaving ventilation room, etc) as it will shutdown when the timer ends or if by any reason it reaches the temperature threshold (again, recommended no less than +20C because it may oscillate some +5/+10).

One thing to take note is NOT to open the tub right after the cycle. For one it’s not recommended when the machine still hasn’t cooled below 100C due to burn risks but you can’t imagine the God awful smell that the stew of mixed resins with IPA leaves when hot. I was recommended to leave it overnight to avoid smells getting out but, because I was in a hurry to get rid of all the old IPA, I ignored that and had to put on a painter’s mask as it was too rotten of a smell. The last one I did leave overnight and, while it still smells, it’s not the end of the world and gives you time to take the bag out and tie a knot to it.

Overall it’s a costly machine (I did saw another European brand that I can’t recall at the moment that was a bit more expensive but offered exactly the same) but it’s a peace of mind to get rid of the waste without too much damage and still have some IPA credits back.

Speaking of the IPA that I got in return: It appears to be basically the same (the smell is exactly the same as fresh IPA) so I assume it’s still good to use. The only thing that bothers me (but this is simply me being picky) is that the recycled IPA comes hot. Letting it cool down works but having hot alcohol is something weird to me.
Fun fact: I had a few 5L containers from one of the many brands I tried and while it seemed sturdy, it completely melted with the recycled and hot IPA. There weren’t any leaks but the container itself deformed in such a way like when you suck the air out of a bottle. All others worked fine but it was a lesson to first check if the container can handle hot stuff that wasn’t designed for.

Obviously you can recycle any solvent as long as it boils at a maximum of around 170C (or +/- double if you use the Vacuum). For example, the TPM boils at 242C so I can only recycle that one using vacuum.

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I did try many variables to see what works best but I settled with the “If this resin + tank combination works, abuse it” method. And, as far as I’ve seen around, what works for some may not work for others so I do suspect that it isn’t something we do but what conditions (resin, tank, luck, etc) we meet.

I’ve had nothing but great prints with both Rigid 4000 and 10k. They’re both different beasts in so many aspects but both behaved as I expected (or rather hoped) they would. Your suspicion does sound plausible because I really did crazy things with it and I got no bad surprises.

I really have to try a really large print with any of the rigid resins once I have the need to it. I’m quite confident it will work but I’m always expecting the worst with the 3L :stuck_out_tongue:

Thanks for all the info! This is great. 2000 Euros seems pretty reasonable actually, that’s around $3000 CAD. I buy IPA is 20L tubs that are basically $200 each, so it looks like it would actually pay itself off quite quickly. I’ll look into it a bit more.

Yeah let us know next time you run a really large print in Rigid 4K and 10K. I’m sure that if you get any layer lines, they will be less because the part will deflect less because of the stiffness, but curious to see some pictures!

In that case yes, it pays off but do keep in mind that you won’t get 100% of the IPA back. All the resin in the used IPA takes a lot of space. In my non scientific measurement I would say I got around 60 to 65% IPA back and we’re talking about VERY dirty one, the one you try to stretch as far as humanly possible.

Yeah, I will. While that’s true for Rigid 4000, Rigid 10k is the worst thing when it comes to spotting shifts, cracks, and whatever may fail. It’s not hard to get a pristine surface out of it but the tiniest glitch is a pain to look at.

The new Rinse Bucket (v2) is available for purchase: https://formlabs.com/store/post-processing/form-3l-finish-kit-rinse-bucket-v2/

I received an email yesterday giving me a discount for ordering the bucket. What really irks me is that Formlabs should offer this to 3L users as a free upgrade since initially this is what i thought i was getting in the first place.

What i really need is the curing unit. They also are announcing the shipping of the form 3L wash unit but i don’t see where the curing oven will be available soon.

That’s what was written on the sticker in the first finishing kit: “Use this because we can’t deliver the good one and you’ll get a discount so that we can sell it to you when we have it”. When I saw that I knew what was coming…

In any case I didn’t get that particular email, only the one about the Form Wash and Form Cure with the discount for the Form Wash. At this point I already purchased alternatives because it should be available on Q1, then on Q2 and now we’re told Q4 but I wouldn’t hold my breath.
They’ve been announcing the shipping forever now and at this point they only have some prototypes to test “with a select group of customers” which obviously means “not me”.

In all honesty I would prefer their curing unit because it should be more specific to their resins than the one I have BUT it will all come down to pricing which I suspect will be an arm and a leg if the small Form Cure is any indication.

Hang the build platform on it and it drains at a different angle, but back into the tank.

I do think i’s best to have two cartridges fitted, FL recommend this, but their “resin left” calculation is rubbish.

Well, I guess it’s Sunday…

Doesn’t see the platform that is there but also doesn’t care and continues to print… no idea what’s worst!

Also, it’s not just the prints that peel, the printer is doing the same:

Happy weekend everyone!