Form 2 Cartridge worn out must replace! NO not this!


#23

It only makes sense if you ignore the reasoning behind the decision.


#24

Before I placed the order for a form 2, to replace the paper weight that was my form1+ I specifically asked if they were doing this sort of thing and got a very clear “no” as the response.


#25

The rubber valve I think could be easily replaced, and perhaps they should offer them for people that want some extras in case they have valve issues.

I also want to point out, by making things restricted it holds Formlabs to a higher standard to get their hardware and resins working as good as they can.


#26

Right here y’all:

Just pull off the black one and trim the back of the blue one to match…


#27

Another concern about FL resins vs third party resins vs FL/third party resin mixes.

FL resin does not perform as well for our application vs FL/third party resin mix.
We are still buying FL resin, but mixing it.
Otherwise we have to go to another 3D printer manufacturer with much higher cost or order prints from a company with that printer at what is still a much higher cost.

The Form 2 is much better than the Form 1+ for our application, even with double the print time.
The F 1+ was around 1 good batch in 3. Not knocking the F 1+, we were at its printing limits.
But while the F2 has printed flawlessly, it would be better with a true open mode.

We also got bit by the cartridge limit. It put us down for a week while we got a new one.
As we are buying both resins and mixing 50/50 it won’t get us in the future it was a pain when it happened.

Add a Warranty Void Super User mode for those wanting to really use it and willing to risk non-warranty repair.


#28

Wow, if there was a way to defeat the usage sensor on the cartridge we’d be home free!


Replacement bite valves for resin cartridge?
#29

There is a much bigger issue here. FL is engaged in something called vertical monopoly. Under Clayton and Sherman Anti-trust Acts owning the production of machines as well as the materials they use is an unlawful monopoly that violates fair trade and competition. Then controlling the software that operates the machines to feed into the sales of a tie-in product like the resin is again a violation of these acts that their patents will not protect them from.


#30

You should tell that to 3D Systems, Stratasys, Solido, just to name a few.

Sorry, but I do not see an issue. We can use 3rd party resins in all of Form Flavor machines. I can’t use 3rd party materials in my InvisionLD / Solido. The Mojo and similar family of printers have chipped filament cartridges that when hacked void the warranty. I am willing to bet that 3D Systems will void your warranty if you dump 3rd party resin in their sla printers. Can we use cornstarch in the Z-Corp line? Are the Objet cartridges refillable with 3rd party resins? I think our efforts are better spent helping FL keep superior products on the market. They all write the controlling software that operates the machines that we feed materials into.

Z-Vat is still selling the glass bottom vats. No one is stopping them (from what I can tell). Design a resin cartridge replacement. I am sure you will sell a few.

So, go ahead. Hack the cartridges. Replace the bite valve. Just don’t be surprised if you end up with a $3,500 repair bill if you have to send the printer in for repairs if the printer gets covered in resin.

Formlabs does listen. Just don’t expect them to jump at all of our ideas. Some ideas are really good. Some are not.

I think it is fair to say that we all get superior results with FL resin, I do. A few printer owners just don’t like the price of the resin.

On the other side of this coin. FL crippling a printer mid-print because the printer thinks it is going to run out of resin is sad. There needs to be an override to let the print finish with full closed loop settings. One should not have to pause a print for a week while they wait for FedEx to deliver.


#31

Even if you are a nice and courteous monopolizer it still unlawful.


#32

I don’t see how anything could be seen as unlawful. Besides, you can still use other resins, just not with the same features turned on. If someone wants to create the same type of resin that Formlabs makes then they are welcome to formulate it.


#33

FL does not have a monopoly on 3D printers. If they want to totally close their system to anything but FL approved consumables, that’s their prerogative. It might not be the best marketing idea, but there is nothing unlawful about it. If you don’t like FL’s policy there are other similar printers you can buy.


#34

@mlabird
how does the cartridge usage sesnor work, where is it located on the cartridge?


#35

I don’t think there’s a sensor, when you print something it keeps track of the volume of resin that you have printed with that cartridge, eventually it will say it’s used too much.
I think this may be tied to the Dashboard app–for example, when I first started printing, I didn’t add the printer to my account, and so my first cartridge wasn’t being tracked. At this point, it shows the cartridge as having more resin in it than it actually has.


#36

I am not a electronics person but it appears to me that there is a sensor with a small memory chip on the lower portion of the cartridge. I have put tape over the sensor on the cartridge and inserted it in the machine and it does not recognize the cartridge at all. This tells me (and I am no expert) That this sensor recognizes the cartridge, it also tells the printer what resin it is, as well as, I think that the chip in the cartridridge has memory or at least an in-bedded serial number that allows the printer to keep track of how many prints are created with that cartridge.
Mike


#37

Yes. Cartridges and Resin Tanks are chipped so the printer can uniquely identify them. My understanding is that it’s the printer that’s remembering how much each has been used, not the cartridge or tank. The chip is read-only. It just gives each component a GUID (Globally Unique ID) code that the printer can remember once it’s been seen.


#38

Right, it has an identifier for the cartridge, but it doesn’t have a sensor for detecting how much resin is in the cartridge, it just keeps track of how much has been used with that cartridge.


#39

Are these cutting off at exactly 1L?


#40

They don’t “cut off”. When the printer thinks you’ve used about 1L it will start to complain that there may not be enough resin to finish the print. You can “abort” or “ignore” and continue printing. After the printer thinks there’s been 2-3L through the cartridge, it eventually refuses to use the cartridge anymore. So the printer will let you use all the resin in a cartridge no problem, plus a bit more if you refill the cartridge.


#41

Right. But I think the question is “Is that acceptable behavior?” There was nothing about locking the printer down to only use their resins (unless you also keep buying their resins) in any fine print I’ve read.

The obvious conclusion is that the behavior of the sensor is surprising in it’s enforcement of a specific and hitherto unknown usage pattern derived from an unbespoke revenue enhancement paradigm to those who had believed ‘OpenMode’ actually meant it.

(spoken indignantly with sharp puncuation in the voice of Cornell West :wink: : )


#42

Well, the subject of Open Mode and the cartridge lifetime has been discussed plenty. To recap - Open Mode lets you use any resin you want. It doesn’t let you use the cartridge, heater or wiper because those are calibrated for FormLabs resins. Other resins might result in overfill or wiper splash over, creating customer support problems (I also have to wonder about how safe resins are when heated. FL presumably ensures their resins don’t out-gas something nasty when heated. But 3rd party?). And the Cartridge has a “bite valve” with a limited lifetime. If the printer let you use the cartridge indefinitely, eventually the valve would fail and all the resin would leak in to and overflow the resin tank, creating customer support problems.

I’ve put a little better than 2L through a Cartridge no problem. The printer complained that the cartridge might not have enough resin each time I started a new print, but otherwise it worked fine. Unscrewed the cap, poured it in, put the cap back on. Rumor has it the printer will refuse to use a Cartridge that’s had about 3L run through it. But I tossed mine after 2L so I don’t know for sure what the upper limit is.

I’ve used the printer in Open Mode and it’s worked great. Would it work better if I could run my MadeSolid Vorex through a cartridge and print with the heater and wiper? Maybe, maybe not. It hasn’t seemed to matter so far. Vorex worked great on my Form1+ too and there’s no Cartridge, heater or wiper there at all.

I’m guessing here of course, but FL wanting to limit these features doesn’t seem to me to have anything to do with a “revenue enhancement paradigm” unless that’s your definition of “staying in business”. They are a business, they need to make money to continue to design cool new printers. They don’t mind if we use 3rd party resins and they even provided a mode to enable that. But they won’t make money if they have to repair/replace printers that are getting soaked in 3rd party resin by inexperienced users who use Open Mode and set the wiper to move too fast or program the bite valve to stay open too long. And don’t forget the users who would (if not restricted by the printer) run liter after liter of resin through the same Cartridge and then complain that “Overnight, all the resin leaked out of this defective Cartridge and overflowed all over the printer!!” and expect FL to clean it up for them.